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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 10:37:43 GMT -5
Exactly I think it would have been in the best interest of the franchise the GM and 18 or so coaches if they could have righted the ship. This GM no matter how much people like or dislikes him keeps working the roster from start to finish to get better. he did his first year cutting Omameh and signing Brown. Williams made the Giants better trying to help your coaching staff survive is what their job is. Picking up a free agent is great...even on a bad team. Pay him a few million and give him a chance to settle in to our team. That's all good.
Giving up two picks on a rebuilding team and then franchising him at that huge number isn't the same thing.
Leonard Williams isn't an average player whether you believe it or not he does a ton for a defense and a coach by being able to play every position from the inside out in either front. Top DTs are getting big money 21 mill he is second tier and that is 13 to 16. And make 0 mistake he helped this defense. It is a big deal when a guy misses no games and plays almost every snap on the inside. and as I said before they have a 3RD sure not as high but they have 9 10 picks still and same goes for the 5 th next year. He said he has to do better took right on his shoulders something that is great to hear from the guy leading your franchise.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 10:38:00 GMT -5
I'm sure Dave has been trying to sign him....quite desperately I would imagine. It's not a matter of a willingness to sign him. It seems the sides are far apart.
It takes two. Now the kid is guaranteed $16+MM in 2020. He has a lot of leverage. 1. He has $16MM in his pocket if he wants it. 2. He knows the pressure Dave is under to sign him.
But a 3 year deal, even at the $12MM I figure, would put more in his pocket and remove risk of injury. I assume that's why no player ever signs that the day they are tagged. I don't look at the lull now as a horrible thing negotiation wise - this is the way it is with every tagged player - but the overall position is a failure. Getting paid $16MM this year and then signing a huge free agent deal next year will be even better. Also, the fact that guys like Clowney can't get his money makes that $16MM look awfully good right now.
If I'm Williams, I run to sign the tag and then let the chips fall.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 10:41:22 GMT -5
Picking up a free agent is great...even on a bad team. Pay him a few million and give him a chance to settle in to our team. That's all good.
Giving up two picks on a rebuilding team and then franchising him at that huge number isn't the same thing.
Leonard Williams isn't an average player whether you believe it or not he does a ton for a defense and a coach by being able to play every position from the inside out in either front. Top DTs are getting big money 21 mill he is second tier and that is 13 to 16. And make 0 mistake he helped this defense. It is a big deal when a guy misses no games and plays almost every snap on the inside. and as I said before they have a 3RD sure not as high but they have 9 10 picks still and same goes for the 5 th next year. He said he has to do better took right on his shoulders something that is great to hear from the guy leading your franchise. As far as I can tell, there is only one DT making over $20MM....and that is Aaron Donald.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 23, 2020 10:44:23 GMT -5
But a 3 year deal, even at the $12MM I figure, would put more in his pocket and remove risk of injury. I assume that's why no player ever signs that the day they are tagged. I don't look at the lull now as a horrible thing negotiation wise - this is the way it is with every tagged player - but the overall position is a failure. Getting paid $16MM this year and then signing a huge free agent deal next year will be even better. Also, the fact that guys like Clowney can't get his money makes that $16MM look awfully good right now.
If I'm Williams, I run to sign the tag and then let the chips fall.
If you were his agent, you would stop him from doing that.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 10:45:21 GMT -5
Dave don't give a rats ass what me you the media thinks this is not over. Josh Norman was franchised DG removed the tag when there was no chance to agree a reasonable number. That was the right move Norman was nothing more then a good player being paid as a top 3 corner in the league by Danny Snyder. The 3rd round pick is killing people it would be nice but they still got one by letting Danny over pay LC i t is n't at the top of the round but they have one this is not a big deal even if he pulls the tag. He cares very dearly what John Mara and Steve Tisch think. And if they are smart they will sit tight he did as promised they attacked free agency in different way they said they were restructuring the whole front office and still are working on it from pro and college player aquisition and the way they scout. sign players. Remember he was sick the first 9 months think he needs more then 2 drafts and free agency periods..
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 10:47:53 GMT -5
Getting paid $16MM this year and then signing a huge free agent deal next year will be even better. Also, the fact that guys like Clowney can't get his money makes that $16MM look awfully good right now.
If I'm Williams, I run to sign the tag and then let the chips fall.
If you were his agent, you would stop him from doing that. If I was his agent I would use all the leverage that the Giants have given me to get my client overpaid on a long term deal.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 23, 2020 10:51:15 GMT -5
If you were his agent, you would stop him from doing that. If I was his agent I would use all the leverage that the Giants have given me to get my client overpaid on a long term deal. That would be the way to go.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 10:55:27 GMT -5
Leonard Williams isn't an average player whether you believe it or not he does a ton for a defense and a coach by being able to play every position from the inside out in either front. Top DTs are getting big money 21 mill he is second tier and that is 13 to 16. And make 0 mistake he helped this defense. It is a big deal when a guy misses no games and plays almost every snap on the inside. and as I said before they have a 3RD sure not as high but they have 9 10 picks still and same goes for the 5 th next year. He said he has to do better took right on his shoulders something that is great to hear from the guy leading your franchise. As far as I can tell, there is only one DT making over $20MM....and that is Aaron Donald. Jones will get his from the chiefs probably more then Donald think he is a better player.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 10:56:26 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, there is only one DT making over $20MM....and that is Aaron Donald. Jones will get his from the chiefs probably more then Donald think he is a better player. Donald is in a league of his own.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 11:01:30 GMT -5
If you were his agent, you would stop him from doing that. If I was his agent I would use all the leverage that the Giants have given me to get my client overpaid on a long term deal. If Clowney gets 16to 18 mill Williams is a better player doesn't miss time never comes off the field and will be a top 5 against the run top 3 in hits and pressures and if He finally ever gets a DE who moves the QB off his spot quick probably the sacks will come. If DG gets him for less then Clowney it would be a good deal.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 11:04:48 GMT -5
Jones will get his from the chiefs probably more then Donald think he is a better player. Donald is in a league of his own. Donald was Jones does it year in year out not taking anything from Donald but they are 1A and 1B Jones has been as good or better he does it all knocks balls down clogs running lanes and throwing lanes and sacks the QB and stops the run it's just the nature of free agency he will get more. when he gets there.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 23, 2020 11:06:03 GMT -5
Jones will get his from the chiefs probably more then Donald think he is a better player. Donald is in a league of his own. So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:06:14 GMT -5
Donald is in a league of his own. Donald was Jones does it year in year out not taking anything from Donald but they are 1A and 1B Jones has been as good or better he does it all knocks balls down clogs running lanes and throwing lanes and sacks the QB and stops the run it's just the nature of free agency he will get more. when he gets there. Aaron Donald isn't just the best DT in the NFL, he may be the best football player in the NFL.
The guy is a monster.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:08:06 GMT -5
Donald is in a league of his own. So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2020 11:11:54 GMT -5
Donald was Jones does it year in year out not taking anything from Donald but they are 1A and 1B Jones has been as good or better he does it all knocks balls down clogs running lanes and throwing lanes and sacks the QB and stops the run it's just the nature of free agency he will get more. when he gets there. Aaron Donald isn't just the best DT in the NFL, he may be the best football player in the NFL.
The guy is a monster.
No doubt Donald is the best but here you are arguing with bigblue who's claiming another player is better than him.. Crazy stuff!
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:13:19 GMT -5
Donald is in a league of his own. So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. I see what you did there. Very cagey.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 23, 2020 11:16:33 GMT -5
So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
Do you think Leonard sees himself to be lucky to get the $16? Because that is really what it all comes down to. I can absolutely promise you that he sees himself as worth a large long term contract that would get him well more than $16. My evidence for this is every other player that ever was tagged. And every player that wasn't tagged. He will be in no rush to sell himself short, at least in his eyes.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:22:32 GMT -5
That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
Do you think Leonard sees himself to be lucky to get the $16? Because that is really what it all comes down to. I can absolutely promise you that he sees himself as worth a large long term contract that would get him well more than $16. My evidence for this is every other player that ever was tagged. And every player that wasn't tagged. He will be in no rush to sell himself short, at least in his eyes. All I know about this is the comment that he made when the report came out that he was looking for $15MM/ year. He said it wasn't true....so I heard.
But one thing that really hasn't been discussed. I think he's a better fit as a DT in a 4/3 scheme. Not sure he's isn't playing out of position for us. In my view that makes him even less valuable to us.
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Post by Delicreep on Mar 23, 2020 11:28:26 GMT -5
Do you think Leonard sees himself to be lucky to get the $16? Because that is really what it all comes down to. I can absolutely promise you that he sees himself as worth a large long term contract that would get him well more than $16. My evidence for this is every other player that ever was tagged. And every player that wasn't tagged. He will be in no rush to sell himself short, at least in his eyes. All I know about this is the comment that he made when the report came out that he was looking for $15MM/ year. He said it wasn't true....so I heard.
But one thing that really hasn't been discussed. I think he's a better fit as a DT in a 4/3 scheme. Not sure he's isn't playing out of position for us. In my view that makes him even less valuable to us.
Well...if he is not perfectly suited to what we will be doing, then a tag and trade option may be in play. I would see that as an incredibly risky move without Williams signing onto it before hand. If it's stubbornly holding onto a square peg, then it would be compounding a mistake, which is never a good thing.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:30:30 GMT -5
All I know about this is the comment that he made when the report came out that he was looking for $15MM/ year. He said it wasn't true....so I heard.
But one thing that really hasn't been discussed. I think he's a better fit as a DT in a 4/3 scheme. Not sure he's isn't playing out of position for us. In my view that makes him even less valuable to us.
Well...if he is not perfectly suited to what we will be doing, then a tag and trade option may be in play. I would see that as an incredibly risky move without Williams signing onto it before hand. If it's stubbornly holding onto a square peg, then it would be compounding a mistake, which is never a good thing. I really stopped trying to figure Dave out. I'm sorry, this whole Williams issue, starting with the trade just makes no sense to me.
Maybe I'm just being a Morehead....but "making sense" matters to me.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 11:38:31 GMT -5
...And let's have a collective moment of honesty here. What did all of you think when you heard about the trade? I assume it wasn't far from my reaction.
I thought...."This is awesome, obviously there is an agreement in place for a long term deal".
I think we all thought the same thing. Because it's the ONLY way this deal made sense.
No one thought..."Let's let him play it out and then tag him for $16+MM".
If any of you claim you did, you aren't being honest. This trade is now in salvage mode. Dave is desperately trying to save it. Maybe he'll pull it out. We will see.
Either way, making this trade for a guy at the end of his contract....without a deal in place made no sense. It just didn't.
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Post by TEM on Mar 23, 2020 11:43:22 GMT -5
...And let's have a collective moment of honesty here. What did all of you think when you heard about the trade? I assume it wasn't far from my reaction. I thought...."This is awesome, obviously there is an agreement in place for a long term deal". I think we all thought the same thing. Because it's the ONLY way this deal made sense. No one thought..."Let's let him play it out and then tag him for $16+MM". If any of you claim you did, you aren't being honest. This trade is now in salvage mode. Dave is desperately trying to save it. Maybe he'll pull it out. We will see. Either way, making this trade for a guy at the end of his contract....without a deal in place made no sense. It just didn't. A 3rd round pick and a 5th ( It was always a 5th) I felt is no big deal as I still do. Until this plays out it cannot be determined if it was a bad of a good deal.
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Post by roundabout on Mar 23, 2020 12:01:59 GMT -5
...And let's have a collective moment of honesty here. What did all of you think when you heard about the trade? I assume it wasn't far from my reaction. I thought...."This is awesome, obviously there is an agreement in place for a long term deal". I think we all thought the same thing. Because it's the ONLY way this deal made sense. No one thought..."Let's let him play it out and then tag him for $16+MM". If any of you claim you did, you aren't being honest. This trade is now in salvage mode. Dave is desperately trying to save it. Maybe he'll pull it out. We will see. Either way, making this trade for a guy at the end of his contract....without a deal in place made no sense. It just didn't. The only sense that this trade makes is that Gettleman wanted to save his ass with immediate up front help against the run and maybe win a few more games.In short he tried to save his job and it wasn't in the best interest of the Giants.A GM hail Mary is what I call it
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 23, 2020 12:16:29 GMT -5
So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad.
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Post by Bigjeep on Mar 23, 2020 12:50:32 GMT -5
Haven't we beaten this subject to death? In the new world of Coronavirus........ .No. We need ANYTHING to talk about other than that.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 12:55:22 GMT -5
So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
Guess people are not paying attention Jones he carried that teams defense to the superbowl. Donald is a great player but I'm not sure guys like jones aren't his equal
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Mar 23, 2020 12:57:57 GMT -5
So if I am Judge, and I am negotiating with Williams.... If he is still looking for anything North of $16, I am rescinding the tag right now. If it's under $15, I am happy to keep going for a bit, but at some point I am telling him there is a final offer on the table. That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
He has far less snaps there think that is nothing more then speculation.
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Post by Morehead State on Mar 23, 2020 12:58:41 GMT -5
That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
Guess people are not paying attention Jones he carried that teams defense to the superbowl. Donald is a great player but I'm not sure guys like jones aren't his equal Word is that he's on the trading block.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 23, 2020 13:04:34 GMT -5
That's why I would sign that tag immediately if I'm Leonard Williams. I had also heard that he might file a grievance with the NFLPA because he considers himself a DE with the Giants.
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad. I wouldn't give him any 72 hour ultimatum. If they tagged him just to try and get a deal and believe no deal will happen, he could screw them by signing the tag before they could rescind it. Norman actually tried to do that in Carolina, but he was too late. And he technically could be talking to other teams right now. It's tough with the 2 first round pick penalty, but he could be seeing what the market is if they rescind the tag.
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Post by Sarcasman on Mar 23, 2020 13:23:51 GMT -5
The longer he goes without the signing the tag the better. I'd be ready to rescind the offer at all times. If I felt like we weren't getting anywhere in negotiations I'd probably out a best and final on the table and tell him he's got 72 hours to sign one of them or go to market and get what you can. The picks are gone, no point in throwing good money after bad. I wouldn't give him any 72 hour ultimatum. If they tagged him just to try and get a deal and believe no deal will happen, he could screw them by signing the tag before they could rescind it. Norman actually tried to do that in Carolina, but he was too late. And he technically could be talking to other teams right now. It's tough with the 2 first round pick penalty, but he could be seeing what the market is if they rescind the tag. I would. He can sign the tag, they tendered it. I wouldn't pull it, I'd simply force him to make either the long term or short term decision now.
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