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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 13:33:46 GMT -5
I have to stick by my view that Joe Judge is getting the players he wants. If I felt Dave had the final call, I would say it would be one of the OT's. But I do believe that this is Joe's team and I think that means that Simmons is the guy. He will be the best player on the board when we pick.
He may be in alot of eyes, but we have such a GLARING need at tackle, we really need two, that theres NO chance Simmons can be the pick. Whos the last off the ball LB that had a HUGE effect on his new team? And thats assuming he will be w full time LBer. Im still pretty weary of that. I think his best role will to be a team that can get him in that Kam Chancellor role of a LB/SS hybrid. 6'5, 235 is pretty skinny for a full time LBer. So you might be getting more of a safety than LBer at 4? Thats questionable at best. Id like to see us go T and C in two of the first three rounds, with a WR in either Round 2 or 3. You could end up with a Thomas/Higgins in the first two rounds, and possibly snag Biadacz with the 3rd round comp pick. If you take Simmons at 4, you MAY get an Austin Jackson type player w the 2nd, but then have to develop him. Tackles are too much of a premium position to pass on, when you will have the pick of the litter. Is it your opinion that Thomas is a higher rated player than Simmons, or that we should take the lower rated player due to need?
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Post by giantlegacy on Mar 25, 2020 13:56:27 GMT -5
He may be in alot of eyes, but we have such a GLARING need at tackle, we really need two, that theres NO chance Simmons can be the pick. Whos the last off the ball LB that had a HUGE effect on his new team? And thats assuming he will be w full time LBer. Im still pretty weary of that. I think his best role will to be a team that can get him in that Kam Chancellor role of a LB/SS hybrid. 6'5, 235 is pretty skinny for a full time LBer. So you might be getting more of a safety than LBer at 4? Thats questionable at best. Id like to see us go T and C in two of the first three rounds, with a WR in either Round 2 or 3. You could end up with a Thomas/Higgins in the first two rounds, and possibly snag Biadacz with the 3rd round comp pick. If you take Simmons at 4, you MAY get an Austin Jackson type player w the 2nd, but then have to develop him. Tackles are too much of a premium position to pass on, when you will have the pick of the litter. Is it your opinion that Thomas is a higher rated player than Simmons, or that we should take the lower rated player due to need? I've always had Thomas as a top 4 pick ..still have Thomas,Wirfs and now Wills ahead of Simmons
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 13:56:33 GMT -5
PFF View4. NEW YORK GIANTS – WR JERRY JEUDY, ALABAMA Giants' faithful is begging for the team to address the pressing need at offensive tackle at No. 4 overall in the 2020 NFL Draft, but Jeudy is a better prospect than every offensive tackle in this class. Rookies, especially rookie offensive linemen, don't fill pressing needs. Over the past five NFL seasons, only nine rookie offensive tackles have played 400-plus snaps and earned overall grades above 70.0. None have earned an overall grade above 82.0. Don't address pressing needs in the draft; just draft the best players available.
Just posting up PFF support for the BPA like Tony... and get a OT later in the draft as he suggests BTW, I don't agree with this and want OT, but stats are...stats. If we draft Simmons and he becomes the new league defensive MVP, and DG gets a starting right tackle who improves to LT by next year in the 2nd round...then I can eat all the crow anybody wants me to...I love Crow...tastes like chicken when we are winning... BTW, their second analytic mock had Ruggs.... I thought that you were a "tape" guy? For a "tape" guy you sure seem to rely blindly on PFF stats a lot. Drafting lesser players for need is a disastrous way to draft. I'm giving both sides of the story regarding PFF here...thought being fair would be appreciated as I use a lot of their stats, as do NFL teams. As far as tape?...tape in college is always tougher when you are trying to translate it to the professional level (what's the percentage of draft picks that make it?)...especially for tackles, for the obvious college scheme issues. This is the reason some super scouts (not Mel Kiper) are having some reservations on a Thomas and longer pass sets. On tape, I believe he can correct those issues. PFF, whom offers some great stats, suggests on some linemen, balance an issue, and suggests, truthfully, that is a must have trait to be a success in the pro level, but then use straight stats to say Thomas is OT1...while the guy does have, albeit minor, balance issues. PFF is just another tool, as is watching ...too much now with my down time of jump cutting away from invisible droplets, tape of prospects. I also agree you want BPA...to a point, but come on Tony...do you really believe teams don't go for need with BPA in the early, early first rounds?
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 13:56:52 GMT -5
Is it your opinion that Thomas is a higher rated player than Simmons, or that we should take the lower rated player due to need? I've always had Thomas as a top 4 pick ..still have Thomas,Wirfs and now Wills ahead of Simmons Fair enough
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 14:00:54 GMT -5
I can understand if the team likes Simmons enough to pass on one of the top OT's. If they take any WR from this draft at 4, I will be really unhappy. Jeudy or Lamb look like All-Pro material. I get that L Fitz vibe from Lamb, and Jeudy moves around alot like D Hopkins. Those kind of players often have more impact on games than off ball LBs. Just sayin.... Way more impact...as do cornerbacks, and even tight ends in todays game. I'd take a WR before I'd take a LB...problem is, Simmons is far more then just a WILL, or safety...he literally can line up anywhere...a Derwin James type hybrid...but I do question his football player grit vs supreme athletic ability.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 14:04:30 GMT -5
Jeudy is going to be a superstar WR in this league. Lamb is going to be legit too.
Neither are worth the #4 pick for us right now.
If a team like New Orleans or Indy were picking #4 (Those 2 teams are going all in in 2020 with Brees and Rivers), maybe its worth it. Give those QBs one big WR weapon to see if they get that ring.
For us? With a weak OL and no pass rush? Not worth it.
Thats how I felt about the SQB pick. Too many holes on the team to go with a running back. Right now, too many holes to go with a WR. (Unless we trade back)
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Post by McCherry on Mar 25, 2020 14:04:59 GMT -5
You don't need great LT's to win, you do need great players on defense. Haha. Great Tackles help your QB stay upright. They help your RB run outside. They are the unsung hero who get no credit for all they do. Tell me a team with a horrendous OL that has had success. Andrew Luck May still be playing if he had a line at any point in his career I never said you could win with a horrendous OL. I said you could win without a great LT. The Giants proved it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 14:05:04 GMT -5
Jeudy or Lamb look like All-Pro material. I get that L Fitz vibe from Lamb, and Jeudy moves around alot like D Hopkins. Those kind of players often have more impact on games than off ball LBs. Just sayin.... *ducks* 100 % agree I actually think Lamb is the best WR in this draft..a combo of Hopkins and Odell post catch... Jeudy is Jerry Rice like route running..... With that said I'm hating one of these guys at 4 ae well...mainly because we are destroying the ability to build the offense value meets need right away... Day 2..yeah,why not,some day one impact dynamic players will be there You can get a quez Watkins at 5 who looks like a more polished version of Slayton coming out ... Hell yeah, if I had a choice of taking JJ, Ruggs or the Lamb.... vs Simmons, I'm taking that WR every day...and you know how I appreciate the LOS...
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 14:05:27 GMT -5
I thought that you were a "tape" guy? For a "tape" guy you sure seem to rely blindly on PFF stats a lot. Drafting lesser players for need is a disastrous way to draft. I'm giving both sides of the story regarding PFF here...thought being fair would be appreciated as I use a lot of their stats, as do NFL teams. As far as tape?...tape in college is always tougher when you are trying to translate it to the professional level (what's the percentage of draft picks that make it?)...especially for tackles, for the obvious college scheme issues. This is the reason some super scouts (not Mel Kiper) are having some reservations on a Thomas and longer pass sets. On tape, I believe he can correct those issues. PFF, whom offers some great stats, suggests on some linemen, balance an issue, and suggests, truthfully, that is a must have trait to be a success in the pro level, but then use straight stats to say Thomas is OT1...while the guy does have, albeit minor, balance issues. PFF is just another tool, as is watching ...too much now with my down time of jump cutting away from invisible droplets, tape of prospects. I also agree you want BPA...to a point, but come on Tony...do you really believe teams don't go for need with BPA in the early, early first rounds? I believe that teams draft for need all the time, and that's what can lead to bad drafts (see Flower, Ereck). I also believe that this is the reason why teams rank guys in tiers, and not just sequentially regardless of position. This avoids a situation where a team is pressured to take Player A LB who is rated a 7.95 over a Player B OT who is rated a 7.9. I think that it is very dangerous to draft a player who is in a lower tier than other available players solely because of need. Could it work out? Sure, but it adds another risk factor to an already risky proposition (the draft process as a whole).
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 14:06:29 GMT -5
Haha. Great Tackles help your QB stay upright. They help your RB run outside. They are the unsung hero who get no credit for all they do. Tell me a team with a horrendous OL that has had success. Andrew Luck May still be playing if he had a line at any point in his career I never said you could win with a horrendous OL. I said you could win without a great LT. The Giants proved it. But you cant have awful tackles. Solder was awful. Remmers was awful.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 14:11:35 GMT -5
I'm giving both sides of the story regarding PFF here...thought being fair would be appreciated as I use a lot of their stats, as do NFL teams. As far as tape?...tape in college is always tougher when you are trying to translate it to the professional level (what's the percentage of draft picks that make it?)...especially for tackles, for the obvious college scheme issues. This is the reason some super scouts (not Mel Kiper) are having some reservations on a Thomas and longer pass sets. On tape, I believe he can correct those issues. PFF, whom offers some great stats, suggests on some linemen, balance an issue, and suggests, truthfully, that is a must have trait to be a success in the pro level, but then use straight stats to say Thomas is OT1...while the guy does have, albeit minor, balance issues. PFF is just another tool, as is watching ...too much now with my down time of jump cutting away from invisible droplets, tape of prospects. I also agree you want BPA...to a point, but come on Tony...do you really believe teams don't go for need with BPA in the early, early first rounds? I believe that teams draft for need all the time, and that's what can lead to bad drafts (see Flower, Ereck). I also believe that this is the reason why teams rank guys in tiers, and not just sequentially regardless of position. This avoids a situation where a team is pressured to take Player A LB who is rated a 7.95 over a Player B OT who is rated a 7.9. I think that it is very dangerous to draft a player who is in a lower tier than other available players solely because of need. Could it work out? Sure, but it adds another risk factor to an already risky proposition (the draft process as a whole). Flowers was a HUGE reach...and also shows exactly how hard it really is to draft a OT into the NFL...no argument from me Agreed we should stick to the NY Giant board, but boards can be tricky for teams, as needs play a huge part. BTW, I have only 3 defensive players top ten, and 2 are not named Brown or Simmons.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 14:15:19 GMT -5
I believe that teams draft for need all the time, and that's what can lead to bad drafts (see Flower, Ereck). I also believe that this is the reason why teams rank guys in tiers, and not just sequentially regardless of position. This avoids a situation where a team is pressured to take Player A LB who is rated a 7.95 over a Player B OT who is rated a 7.9. I think that it is very dangerous to draft a player who is in a lower tier than other available players solely because of need. Could it work out? Sure, but it adds another risk factor to an already risky proposition (the draft process as a whole). Flowers was a HUGE reach...and also shows exactly how hard it really is to draft a OT into the NFL...no argument from me Agreed we should stick to the NY Giant board, but boards can be tricky for teams, as needs play a huge part. BTW, I have only 3 defensive players top ten, and 2 are not named Brown or Simmons. Flowers was a big time reach. It was a throw at the dart board and hope for a bullseye type draft pick. And to be honest, I think Becton is very similar. You could hit that Bulls eye, and he is a dominant LT for the next 10-12 years, or he is Erick Flowers. Very raw. Is he teachable? Who knows. High risk. I feel the other 3 are much more sound tackles. Nothing is 100% guaranteed though.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 14:16:06 GMT -5
I believe that teams draft for need all the time, and that's what can lead to bad drafts (see Flower, Ereck). I also believe that this is the reason why teams rank guys in tiers, and not just sequentially regardless of position. This avoids a situation where a team is pressured to take Player A LB who is rated a 7.95 over a Player B OT who is rated a 7.9. I think that it is very dangerous to draft a player who is in a lower tier than other available players solely because of need. Could it work out? Sure, but it adds another risk factor to an already risky proposition (the draft process as a whole). Flowers was a HUGE reach...and also shows exactly how hard it really is to draft a OT into the NFL...no argument from me Agreed we should stick to the NY Giant board, but boards can be tricky for teams, as needs play a huge part. BTW, I have only 3 defensive players top ten, and 2 are not named Brown or Simmons. Well, if they have an OT rated higher than Simmons, it makes the whole issue moot IMO. Also, as I said earlier, if Simmons is the highest rated player at 4 and they didn't want to take a LB/S at that spot, I would be fine with trading back, accumulating more picks and taking Simmons or an OT at the new draft slot.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 14:17:13 GMT -5
Flowers was a HUGE reach...and also shows exactly how hard it really is to draft a OT into the NFL...no argument from me Agreed we should stick to the NY Giant board, but boards can be tricky for teams, as needs play a huge part. BTW, I have only 3 defensive players top ten, and 2 are not named Brown or Simmons. Flowers was a big time reach. It was a throw at the dart board and hope for a bullseye type draft pick. And to be honest, I think Becton is very similar. You could hit that Bulls eye, and he is a dominant LT for the next 10-12 years, or he is Erick Flowers. Very raw. Is he teachable? Who knows. High risk. I feel the other 3 are much more sound tackles. Nothing is 100% guaranteed though. I feel like the team's inability to spend time with a guy like Becton due to the lockdown will hurt his chances of us taking him at #4.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 14:22:39 GMT -5
Flowers was a HUGE reach...and also shows exactly how hard it really is to draft a OT into the NFL...no argument from me Agreed we should stick to the NY Giant board, but boards can be tricky for teams, as needs play a huge part. BTW, I have only 3 defensive players top ten, and 2 are not named Brown or Simmons. Well, if they have an OT rated higher than Simmons, it makes the whole issue moot IMO. Also, as I said earlier, if Simmons is the highest rated player at 4 and they didn't want to take a LB/S at that spot, I would be fine with trading back, accumulating more picks and taking Simmons or an OT at the new draft slot. Yep, that is exactly what I hope they do...trade back, but not too far...unless the Giant super scouts feel one of those 2nd round tackles you were mentioning can be reached for in the middle first...if we rate 5 tackles close enough, we can use the amount of tackles in our favor...lol, then when we get to pick 11 or whatever, see Thomas, Wills, Wirfs and Becton all taken right before that pick to give every Giant fan a coronary ...
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Post by McCherry on Mar 25, 2020 14:41:02 GMT -5
I never said you could win with a horrendous OL. I said you could win without a great LT. The Giants proved it. But you cant have awful tackles. Solder was awful. Remmers was awful. Agreed. Awful, no but many teams have won Superbowls without franchise LT's.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Mar 25, 2020 15:01:38 GMT -5
But you cant have awful tackles. Solder was awful. Remmers was awful. Agreed. Awful, no but many teams have won Superbowls without franchise LT's. Super, with superstar QBs or elite defenses.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Mar 25, 2020 15:20:21 GMT -5
I believe that teams draft for need all the time, and that's what can lead to bad drafts (see Flower, Ereck). I also believe that this is the reason why teams rank guys in tiers, and not just sequentially regardless of position. This avoids a situation where a team is pressured to take Player A LB who is rated a 7.95 over a Player B OT who is rated a 7.9. I think that it is very dangerous to draft a player who is in a lower tier than other available players solely because of need. Could it work out? Sure, but it adds another risk factor to an already risky proposition (the draft process as a whole). Flowers was a HUGE reach... turd.Fixed.
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 25, 2020 15:20:32 GMT -5
Well, if they have an OT rated higher than Simmons, it makes the whole issue moot IMO. Also, as I said earlier, if Simmons is the highest rated player at 4 and they didn't want to take a LB/S at that spot, I would be fine with trading back, accumulating more picks and taking Simmons or an OT at the new draft slot. Yep, that is exactly what I hope they do...trade back, but not too far...unless the Giant super scouts feel one of those 2nd round tackles you were mentioning can be reached for in the middle first...if we rate 5 tackles close enough, we can use the amount of tackles in our favor...lol, then when we get to pick 11 or whatever, see Thomas, Wills, Wirfs and Becton all taken right before that pick to give every Giant fan a coronary ... That's exactly what will happen if we move back to 12 … all 4 OT's will be gone before we pick.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Mar 25, 2020 15:30:56 GMT -5
Yep, that is exactly what I hope they do...trade back, but not too far...unless the Giant super scouts feel one of those 2nd round tackles you were mentioning can be reached for in the middle first...if we rate 5 tackles close enough, we can use the amount of tackles in our favor...lol, then when we get to pick 11 or whatever, see Thomas, Wills, Wirfs and Becton all taken right before that pick to give every Giant fan a coronary ... That's exactly what will happen if we move back to 12 … all 4 OT's will be gone before we pick. ....and I would personally run over Gettleman's dog.
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 25, 2020 15:50:09 GMT -5
I know it can happen with any drafted player but I have seen so many OTs taken high in the draft and then bust in the pros, its a gamble but I think we have a better no-bust chance with player like Simmons...
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Post by snyder55 on Mar 25, 2020 15:52:38 GMT -5
our offense was nothing to brag about last season but our defense absolutely sucked and it needs a transfusion of talent, Simmons is the guy who can do that,, either him or Young is what's needed in this draft....
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 25, 2020 16:14:49 GMT -5
You’re one of the better minds posting on this board. You have good insight and treat people with respect. I follow your line of thinking and understand the need. With that said - after the fab 4 there is a obvious drop off in OT stable. Too many question marks with the round 2 possibilities. I think we’re taking Thomas in round 1. WE HAVE TO PROTECT DJ BETTER. Simmons - could be a huge mistake if we pass on him - he has a lot of tools. He also had some pretty big question marks. Is he good at everything and great at nothing? Why does he consistently take poor angles to the ball carrier? If he struggled shedding blocks at the college level how is he gonna handle better blockers in the NFL? We’ll see - if we take him I’ll SMH but hope he is a great pick. Me being wrong doesn’t bother me. Thanks. I can absolutely see us going OT for all the reasons you said. I think at the end of the day they will judge Simmons to be a much better prospect than any of the fab 4. There is no hands down great OT prospect which is why there is so much confusion on where each will go. IMO if there was one great one he would be listed consistently at the top, unless of course there are 4 great ones (I doubt anyone really believes that). Doesn't mean our team doesn't think there is 1 great one that they want of course.
Me being wrong won't bother me either, as long as we get a great player. Both LB and OT are huge needs.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 25, 2020 16:18:56 GMT -5
It's not the same comparison. The cover LB you can exist without, the LT you can't. I'm ok with Simmons, but you don't just pull starting LT's out of thin air. I also think fans have a different outlook that coaches and the staff. I believe we think we have our starting LT in Nate Solder. I also believe they signed Cam Fleming as a stop gap in case we don't land a good OT. We are also apparently talking to Daryl Williams, OT that DG drafted.
IMO at the end of the day our first round pick will be based on the evaluation of the player, with his position only being factored in if they are very closely rated. This mantra has been repeated by DG over and over and was pretty clear with his first two drafts here. So the question is how will they rate these guys. I fault no one that thinks they might rate Thomas (or another OT) highly enough to take him, I personally just think they won't.
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Post by jaymas on Mar 25, 2020 16:24:45 GMT -5
Jeudy or Lamb look like All-Pro material. I get that L Fitz vibe from Lamb, and Jeudy moves around alot like D Hopkins. Those kind of players often have more impact on games than off ball LBs. Just sayin.... *ducks* 100 % agree I actually think Lamb is the best WR in this draft..a combo of Hopkins and Odell post catch... Jeudy is Jerry Rice like route running..... With that said I'm hating one of these guys at 4 ae well...mainly because we are destroying the ability to build the offense value meets need right away... Day 2..yeah,why not,some day one impact dynamic players will be there You can get a quez Watkins at 5 who looks like a more polished version of Slayton coming out ... Jeudy reminds me most of Marvin Harrison. Which means, while I'd be shocked if that happened at 4...I would not get irrationally angry. Maybe that's just the allure of skill position players making me a little blinded, who knows. But it's hard to say it's an absolutely terrible idea when you have a young QB. That being said, we absolutely have more pressing needs.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 16:33:30 GMT -5
...2 games lost to injury The franchise....Danny Mistimes and sometimes Dimes....getting snaps from wherever he may roam as long as it's not into a zone, with edge protection by the blind side left leaning usher and something is not right blocking the rusher. Simmons...sweet.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 16:38:47 GMT -5
Nate Solder
11 sacks 9 hits 37 hurries 57 pressures 5 penalties
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 25, 2020 16:42:57 GMT -5
New head coach, new OL coach, new OC, new offensive scheme, the guy was dealing with a major family medical issue, we are paying him $19m this year.
As I said, you the fan might not like it, but what we think and the team thinks are often very different. Just like you didn't want them to sign him, yet DG went against your advice and did it anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 17:16:32 GMT -5
I do believe we need to be drafting a RT1 who can move to LT next year...nothing too complicated to call on the Big Red guy to help you out with...I'd cut him in a second, as quickly as you cut those ugly stats in my post...if we were able to trade back and get two quality tackles...he was as horrific as Flowers last year...and yeah, stats suggest it.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 25, 2020 17:18:25 GMT -5
I do believe we need to be drafting a RT1 who can move to LT next year. Forgive me, going forward I will just cut all the nonsense out of your posts.
I agree with you on this one. I think we find that guy in round 2.
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