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Post by DandyDon on May 16, 2020 22:31:13 GMT -5
If something does happen and this thing goes a way then lets hope for a miracle that this wakes Baker up and he becomes a good player.If it doesn't go a way and this kid doesn't play again then he becomes a terrible decision by Getty and the worst 1st rounder in Giants history.. The dirt on this player is so baked in, his optics are so eff'ed up, his tenure brief, his play poor, that his risk level is now at Defcon ONE.IMO the chances of him playing for the NYG - or anywhere else for that matter - are effectively ZERO. Tell us how you really feel. IYO.
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Post by GameTime on May 17, 2020 6:29:15 GMT -5
point being if Baker was "such a bad pick" DG would have been flamed at the time of draft. Thats why it matters. Its being made out that EVERYONE knew to not draft Baker except the Giants. Not saying that's your position but others on this board are taking that stance. In their defense, no team drafted Baker after the Giants did...that's pretty compelling evidence right there. now thats funny....
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 6:56:19 GMT -5
If something does happen and this thing goes a way then lets hope for a miracle that this wakes Baker up and he becomes a good player.If it doesn't go a way and this kid doesn't play again then he becomes a terrible decision by Getty and the worst 1st rounder in Giants history.. The dirt on this player is so baked in, his optics are so eff'ed up, his tenure brief, his play poor, that his risk level is now at Defcon ONE.IMO the chances of him playing for the NYG - or anywhere else for that matter - are effectively ZERO. I can see that being the case. I just went the what if he was set up and is innocent route. Not fair to cut a player for bad choices of people that he hangs with I mean after all Ray Lewis was with a group who did kill..
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Post by GameTime on May 17, 2020 7:41:16 GMT -5
The dirt on this player is so baked in, his optics are so eff'ed up, his tenure brief, his play poor, that his risk level is now at Defcon ONE.IMO the chances of him playing for the NYG - or anywhere else for that matter - are effectively ZERO. I can see that being the case. I just went the what if he was set up and is innocent route. Not fair to cut a player for bad choices of people that he hangs with I mean after all Ray Lewis was with a group who did kill.. If there is a video proving Baker's innocence then the Giants will want to see that of course.. Not sure when they can legally have access. If there is no video then they will need to hear witness testimony sooner rather than later. They will give Baker a chance to show he didnt do it. If it gets to convoluted he will be cut.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 7:45:19 GMT -5
I can see that being the case. I just went the what if he was set up and is innocent route. Not fair to cut a player for bad choices of people that he hangs with I mean after all Ray Lewis was with a group who did kill.. If there is a video proving Baker's innocence then the Giants will want to see that of course.. Not sure when they can legally have access. If there is no video then they will need to hear witness testimony sooner rather than later. They will give Baker a chance to show he didnt do it. If it gets to convoluted he will be cut. I'm assuming convoluted was meant to be convicted as yes that would be an easy call.
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Post by GameTime on May 17, 2020 8:21:20 GMT -5
If there is a video proving Baker's innocence then the Giants will want to see that of course.. Not sure when they can legally have access. If there is no video then they will need to hear witness testimony sooner rather than later. They will give Baker a chance to show he didnt do it. If it gets to convoluted he will be cut. I'm assuming convoluted was meant to be convicted as yes that would be an easy call. . If it drags on and becomes a convoluted mess it means he isnt really innocent IMO. Its easy....if there is a video or credible witness proving innocence then it will come out ASAP.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 8:23:34 GMT -5
I'm assuming convoluted was meant to be convicted as yes that would be an easy call. . If it drags on and becomes a convoluted mess it means he isnt really innocent IMO. Its easy....if there is a video or credible witness proving innocence then it will come out ASAP. That's a good point if this drags on he's going to be lucky to play this season.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 8:27:16 GMT -5
I hope so. That is the best case scenario for all parties. It certainly livened up this off season though. We haven't had a series of threads this hot in quite a while. It's what you get when you have an unpopular GM who drafted a guy who screwed up. if it were any other GM they would be saying good thing he has loaded up with depth nice bit of roster building, and they would be torching Baker. This my friend is a fact the mob is fickle.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 8:27:25 GMT -5
I did a search earlier today and found several articles where everyone was high on the pick without any mention of character issues. I didn't find anyone who didn't like the pick.
It truly goes to show that no one ever knows. While I agree with you some poster's here will tell you they did . I didn't see anyone making that claim just like Roosevelt said even after the warnings were brought out.. Some do feel that the Giants FO should've been a ware of these character issues since it's their job..
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 8:32:42 GMT -5
We haven't had a series of threads this hot in quite a while. It's what you get when you have an unpopular GM who drafted a guy who screwed up. if it were any other GM they would be saying good thing he has loaded up with depth nice bit of roster building, and they would be torching Baker. This my friend is a fact the mob is fickle. If they were playing better football and winning more then just 9 games under his guidance then things would be different all around. We can all posture our opinions and when you watch and followed the game as long as some of us we have the mentality that wins are all that matters especially after having been through a winning coach like Parcells who preached that.
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Post by Roosevelt on May 17, 2020 8:51:27 GMT -5
I did a search earlier today and found several articles where everyone was high on the pick without any mention of character issues. I didn't find anyone who didn't like the pick.
It truly goes to show that no one ever knows. While I agree with you some poster's here will tell you they did . Hopefully those aren’t the same fans who “knew” Phil Simms would never win a Super Bowl because I knew a few of those people when I was in my 20’s, and I’d hate to think they’ve been getting things wrong their whole life. 😏
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Post by Roosevelt on May 17, 2020 8:57:08 GMT -5
While I agree with you some poster's here will tell you they did . I didn't see anyone making that claim just like Roosevelt said even after the warnings were brought out.. Some do feel that the Giants FO should've been a ware of these character issues since it's their job.. If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it?
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 8:59:21 GMT -5
While I agree with you some poster's here will tell you they did . Hopefully those aren’t the same fans who “knew” Phil Simms would never win a Super Bowl because I knew a few of those people when I was in my 20’s, and I’d hate to think they’ve been getting things wrong their whole life. 😏 Both Sims and Manning had rough starts in their careers for sure but then both switched that trend and became 2x winners. Makes you thrilled about what we saw from Jones and hopefully the teams defense can be serviceable enough this year so they can help preserve more then a couple of wins for Jones.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2020 9:03:26 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone making that claim just like Roosevelt said even after the warnings were brought out.. Some do feel that the Giants FO should've been a ware of these character issues since it's their job.. If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? So then the issue is why has Getty been preaching high character while trading OBJ and Snacks but then goes and trades three picks for another player with character concerns?? Lack of consistency from Getty has been the frustration part especially due to the bad win/loss record..
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 9:27:22 GMT -5
I can see that being the case. I just went the what if he was set up and is innocent route. Not fair to cut a player for bad choices of people that he hangs with I mean after all Ray Lewis was with a group who did kill.. If there is a video proving Baker's innocence then the Giants will want to see that of course.. Not sure when they can legally have access. If there is no video then they will need to hear witness testimony sooner rather than later. They will give Baker a chance to show he didnt do it. If it gets to convoluted he will be cut. Exactly and while that might suck it is not the end of the world for the Giants but it is for Baker. They have some promising young guys to keep grooming I would like Julian Love and Ballentine / Biel to get an opportunity to play out side no matter what happens with Baker whether he is here or not. Last year he was coaches horse in that race this year Judge didn't have input and doesn't care where he was drafted.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 9:36:15 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone making that claim just like Roosevelt said even after the warnings were brought out.. Some do feel that the Giants FO should've been a ware of these character issues since it's their job.. If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? I think the point here is that OBJ was different to say the least. Bakers issues were the kind that coaches think they can motivate and help a kid mature. I think if he had a couple bar brawls on his docket he might have dropped even further. The Patriots are still questioned about drafting Hernandez he had some violent stuff covered up by Urban Meyer couple brawls guns were used to some extent not sure how much it was in the documentary. Baker had nothing like that he was the best corner in the draft arguably and no less then #2 and they got him at the bottom of the first if he matured it's a steal if not we are where we are whether he is guilty or not.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 9:40:48 GMT -5
By the way now that he is released maybe he can start working on his craft and get in the virtual offseason program. Or maybe he has opened the boxes of the equipment they sent him
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Post by Sarcasman on May 17, 2020 9:56:23 GMT -5
I didn't see anyone making that claim just like Roosevelt said even after the warnings were brought out.. Some do feel that the Giants FO should've been a ware of these character issues since it's their job.. If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? I tried to tell you guys back in ‘14 that Odell would go on to become an armed robber. It’s just logical.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 10:01:46 GMT -5
If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? I say yes ,I have never questioned Odell's talent but he was a detriment to the team and after that interview with all the money the Giants had just paid him,he had to go..............for the right price. OBJ has nothing to do with this situation why he keeps coming up is silly BS. he is going into his 7th year are the Giants close no they knew they could get a decent hall for him with him being signed and all. And knew that one more injury plagued drama ridden season they weren't gonna get anything for him and have to bite the bullet . He was hurt again last year but played through it these things don't get better as players get older. OBJ is a totally different situation then Baker. Baker didn't come in with big red flags he came in with the stuff coaches think they can work with just like OBJ did. In the end this hind sight crap is good for message boards don't work on draft night because there is none. As I said before if this was 6 years ago with JR we would be pissed about Baker but happy he kept adding depth to one of the most important position groups outside of the trenches. No one knew not Walter football or bleacher report or any GM that this would happen. Now if you told me they thought he might bust because he was lazy I would buy that. He showed at the end of last year when he got called out he played good football the last 5 or 6 games so there was hope thats what ticks me off, not whether we drafted him or not he wasn't drafted where his value was they got him late 1st he was a 10 to 15 value.
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Post by Morehead State on May 17, 2020 10:05:11 GMT -5
I say yes ,I have never questioned Odell's talent but he was a detriment to the team and after that interview with all the money the Giants had just paid him,he had to go..............for the right price. OBJ has nothing to do with this situation why he keeps coming up is silly BS. he is going into his 7th year are the Giants close no they knew they could get a decent hall for him with him being signed and all. And knew that one more injury plagued drama ridden season they weren't gonna get anything for him and have to bite the bullet . He was hurt again last year but played through it these things don't get better as players get older. OBJ is a totally different situation then Baker. Baker didn't come in with big red flags he came in with the stuff coaches think they can work with just like OBJ did. In the end this hind sight crap is good for message boards don't work on draft night because there is none. As I said before if this was 6 years ago with JR we would be pissed about Baker but happy he kept adding depth to one of the most important position groups outside of the trenches. No one knew not Walter football or bleacher report or any GM that this would happen. Now if you told me they thought he might bust because he was lazy I would buy that. He showed at the end of last year when he got called out he played good football the last 5 or 6 games so there was hope thats what ticks me off, not whether we drafted him or not he wasn't drafted where his value was they got him late 1st he was a 10 to 15 value. The only red flag I can remember about Odell was his slight build and the fear he would get hurt.
He was actually a great kid until that damned catch......which changed everything.....for the worse. And as you said the red flags with Baker were his work ethic. The guy had never been arrested in his life.
Maybe we should just let this play out before deciding what is real and what's not. This story seems strange and I'm guessing some twists are coming.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 17, 2020 10:12:29 GMT -5
OBJ has nothing to do with this situation why he keeps coming up is silly BS. he is going into his 7th year are the Giants close no they knew they could get a decent hall for him with him being signed and all. And knew that one more injury plagued drama ridden season they weren't gonna get anything for him and have to bite the bullet . He was hurt again last year but played through it these things don't get better as players get older. OBJ is a totally different situation then Baker. Baker didn't come in with big red flags he came in with the stuff coaches think they can work with just like OBJ did. In the end this hind sight crap is good for message boards don't work on draft night because there is none. As I said before if this was 6 years ago with JR we would be pissed about Baker but happy he kept adding depth to one of the most important position groups outside of the trenches. No one knew not Walter football or bleacher report or any GM that this would happen. Now if you told me they thought he might bust because he was lazy I would buy that. He showed at the end of last year when he got called out he played good football the last 5 or 6 games so there was hope thats what ticks me off, not whether we drafted him or not he wasn't drafted where his value was they got him late 1st he was a 10 to 15 value. The only red flag I can remember about Odell was his slight build and the fear he would get hurt.
He was actually a great kid until that damned catch......which changed everything.....for the worse. And as you said the red flags with Baker were his work ethic. The guy had never been arrested in his life.
Maybe we should just let this play out before deciding what is real and what's not. This story seems strange and I'm guessing some twists are coming.
Your money MS that catch killed him. But I do think there the interview is what opened up the trade option but the standing of the team and the fact he was gonna be on the back 9 by the time the team was ready probably contributed to it and the fact they got a decent hall for him and they should have. Baker isn't close to the talent of OBJ and they are 2 completely different situations for several reasons. Never disliked OBJ but after the shock understood the trade.
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Post by Morehead State on May 17, 2020 10:18:36 GMT -5
The only red flag I can remember about Odell was his slight build and the fear he would get hurt.
He was actually a great kid until that damned catch......which changed everything.....for the worse. And as you said the red flags with Baker were his work ethic. The guy had never been arrested in his life.
Maybe we should just let this play out before deciding what is real and what's not. This story seems strange and I'm guessing some twists are coming.
Your money MS that catch killed him. But I do think there the interview is what opened up the trade option but the standing of the team and the fact he was gonna be on the back 9 by the time the team was ready probably contributed to it and the fact they got a decent hall for him and they should have. Baker isn't close to the talent of OBJ and they are 2 completely different situations for several reasons. Never disliked OBJ but after the shock understood the trade. I still hate the trade. It's easy to find slightly above average players in free agency. It's very hard to find a talented player like Odell.
The "interview" and what lead up to it had as much to do with the crappy environment we had on this team. Weak coaching staff. Weak leadership in general. In that kind of environment, players can go off. No one to reign them in. and losing doesn't help either.
Hopefully with this new staff we won't see these kinds of things.
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Post by Roosevelt on May 17, 2020 10:39:25 GMT -5
If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? So then the issue is why has Getty been preaching high character while trading OBJ and Snacks but then goes and trades three picks for another player with character concerns?? Lack of consistency from Getty has been the frustration part especially due to the bad win/loss record.. There’s an obvious difference between a vet and a rookie. I think we’ve all learned by now that receivers and corners in general are a breed apart from the rest of the players and of that is not meant to insult all the upstanding players who give back and have used their hard work and athleticism for a greater good. The Giants are not unlike other teams who have made it known of their efforts to bring in players they feel are the right fit for the team. However I don’t think we should be all that surprised when players fail due to personal issues. Baker and Dunbar have been joined by Latimer and Evans - all with gun possession charges indicating this is not a team problem but a league problem.
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Post by GameTime on May 17, 2020 10:44:03 GMT -5
If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? So then the issue is why has Getty been preaching high character while trading OBJ and Snacks but then goes and trades three picks for another player with character concerns?? Lack of consistency from Getty has been the frustration part especially due to the bad win/loss record.. OB was traded because of his issue while on the NYGs not for what he did or didn't do in college. What exactly were the character issues of Baker that the NYGs knew and "looked past"? No one really knows. If they knew then they took a chance. Trying to have a roster full of high character guys is a great goal but we all know that is impossible. If that is the organizations goal then they do their best but there will be bad apples along the way. Whatever info they had, if they had any at all, they obviously thought it wasn't that terrible. With that said DG was brought in to find the next franchise QB and get the team back to be competitive. When I say competitive I mean contending for the playoffs. Now for the big "what if".....What if they make the playoffs with Jones this season (if it happens) or get close and make the playoffs next season. Will that be a great job by DG or will Judge get all the credit and DG just be "lucky". Oh yeah...I forgot Mara is the only one who hires the HC and DG has zero input... This is a general post and not directed towards you with any type of implications etc.
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Post by Roosevelt on May 17, 2020 10:47:40 GMT -5
If Walter Football and Bleacher Report knew he had some issues, then we know the Giants looked long and hard at them. And if they didn’t, then that’s on them. But for my money I’d say they felt the talent would be worth the aggravation. It’s no different than drafting Odell. All teams knew Odell had issues, but the Giants took the chance on him. Was he worth it? I say yes ,I have never questioned Odell's talent but he was a detriment to the team and after that interview with all the money the Giants had just paid him,he had to go..............for the right price. He’s a tremendous player who’s extremely caught up in celebrity. It certainly made me question his focus and desire to win.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 17, 2020 10:54:38 GMT -5
I say yes ,I have never questioned Odell's talent but he was a detriment to the team and after that interview with all the money the Giants had just paid him,he had to go..............for the right price. He’s a tremendous player who’s extremely caught up in celebrity. It certainly made me question his focus and desire to win. How could you? He keeps saying over and over that he's all about winning. Every interview I've ever seen where he gets asked about situations where he put himself above the team and behaved selfishly he clearly explained it's because he wants to win so badly. I just don't see what more a guy could do.
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Post by TEM on May 17, 2020 11:01:48 GMT -5
He’s a tremendous player who’s extremely caught up in celebrity. It certainly made me question his focus and desire to win. How could you? He keeps saying over and over that he's all about winning. Every interview I've ever seen where he gets asked about situations where he put himself above the team and behaved selfishly he clearly explained it's because he wants to win so badly. I just don't see what more a guy could do. Did he hold the standard " he wants to win so badly" when he received a big contract and made the choice to sit out the remainder of the 2018 season because of a bruise on his thigh ?
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Post by Roosevelt on May 17, 2020 11:07:07 GMT -5
He’s a tremendous player who’s extremely caught up in celebrity. It certainly made me question his focus and desire to win. How could you? He keeps saying over and over that he's all about winning. Every interview I've ever seen where he gets asked about situations where he put himself above the team and behaved selfishly he clearly explained it's because he wants to win so badly. I just don't see what more a guy could do. Go on a boat?
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Post by bringsimmsback on May 17, 2020 11:18:01 GMT -5
It would be interesting if it turns out that Gettlemen was on the side against taking him but got convinced by the rest of the decision-making team. Forgive me, but I didn't read the article itself and only the excerpt copied here. Does the the writer at any point say directly that Gettlemen overruled everyone with his power as GM? Do we know how extensive the battle was or was it just a few saying the character issues weren't worth the risk? The fact they traded up suggests to me there was significant cohesion when the final decision was made. We don't know yet if it was worth the risk. Their taking so many DBs that year now has added meaning to me: they were off-setting some of that risk, it seems. If Baker is guilty and goes to jail it wasn't worth the risk. If he is innocent and he fails as a player because of bad worth ethic, then it wasn't. Shit happens though - this is a painful and smellier than average shit but it is still just shit. If Gettlemen was constantly taking this kind of shit, I'd suggest he use another bathroom. But at this point, even if Baker bombs out, which some of us seem to forget is still to be determined, I still think Gettlemen is doing a good job. Lets see how the 2018 draft class does this year and the current batch of FAs - that will tell me more than Baker's fate.
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Post by Sarcasman on May 17, 2020 11:24:11 GMT -5
Your money MS that catch killed him. But I do think there the interview is what opened up the trade option but the standing of the team and the fact he was gonna be on the back 9 by the time the team was ready probably contributed to it and the fact they got a decent hall for him and they should have. Baker isn't close to the talent of OBJ and they are 2 completely different situations for several reasons. Never disliked OBJ but after the shock understood the trade. I still hate the trade. It's easy to find slightly above average players in free agency. It's very hard to find a talented player like Odell.
The "interview" and what lead up to it had as much to do with the crappy environment we had on this team. Weak coaching staff. Weak leadership in general. In that kind of environment, players can go off. No one to reign them in. and losing doesn't help either.
Hopefully with this new staff we won't see these kinds of things.
He is hugely talented. When he can maintain his game at the level of his talk he'll be wearing a gold jacket. That said, he's just a WR. So I disagree that it's very hard to find a talented player like Odell. Sure, he's a talented WR and there are plenty of talented WRs that get drafted each year across nearly all rounds. There's nothing rare about it. He talks a tremendous athlete, that's the main reason anyone would be talking about him at all now.
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