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Post by Roswell on Jul 24, 2020 13:04:51 GMT -5
I love when people turn the simple common sense of wearing a mask into a freedom issue. As if their rights are somehow infringed because they are asked to be considerate.
For me it’s simple....
Freedom of speech does not allow you to run into a movie theater and yell “Fire!”
Personal liberty does not allow you to drive 70 mph past a school.
And personal choice should not allow you to walk around without a mask during a lethal pandemic.
People need to wake up.
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Post by Providence on Jul 24, 2020 13:13:29 GMT -5
Dude, if you have an underlying condition the mortality rate skyrockets. If the virus hit you like it hit me (Over 45 days to recover, severe weight-loss and difficulty breathing, you would be a lot more empathetic to Solder's situation... .... but the facts are the economy and human life are synonymous.... There is no country that has the wealth and borrowing power that the United States does. We could absolutely keep the economy churning and protect human lives for as long as it took to get the pandemic under control. We choose not to.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 24, 2020 13:34:21 GMT -5
One of the problems (I do data analysis for a living) is that math is rigorous (of course) but the source numbers here are not. The death count is the best one but even that is squishy. Death with or death from COVID?? Death, assumed COVID? And that is the strongest #. The # infected is just a number.............number testing positive? We hear that many of the tests are up to 20% inaccurate. Unless we test the entire population in a very short period of time, with a test that is accurate to the high 90% range, the # infected is useful data for health professionals but worthless in a math equation. We have heard that there could be as many as 30m who've been infected. That would change the math wouldn't it? I am just rambling on how everyone should be suspicious when people try pinning you down based on irrefutable math. PS the numbers can lie if reported without context. None of this has anything to do with how we should all be dealing with this menace. We should treat as a highly contagious, deadly virus and stay as separated as possible until a vaccine emerges and be particularly protective of the elderly and sick. The numbers I presented are government figures that a accepted from both sides of the political spectrum. These are the best numbers that we have to work with and it took me a grand total of 1 minuted to calculate both of my percentages (This isn't an exaggeration). Of course, these numbers might be a bit overstated due to several reasons but there isn't any reason to consider them bad. If you want to say + or - 10%, I wouldn't think that's unreasonable. Plus, I believe the death rate % that I calculated (3.5%) is in line or slightly better than other countries, which you can use as a high level sense check. Also, I agree that everyone should social distance at this point just out of respect for our elders. I take no comfort or solace that we are "higher or lower" than other countries. All this counting from more sources (countries) just introduces more variables, more misleading statements that are pounced on by opportunistic politicians and brain dead, agenda driven media. ......and most of all it misses the point. We are not better or worse than other countries at this. We all count differently. Even if we could sort out the different methodologies, it will take years. Fighting over meaningless stats (in a rigorous statistical sense) wastes a bunch of time and misses the point. Physically distancing ourselves makes perfect sense everywhere and so does wearing masks when the spacing is tight. I would advise against using any data to make such an obvious point.
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Post by jb456 on Jul 24, 2020 14:01:38 GMT -5
The numbers I presented are government figures that a accepted from both sides of the political spectrum. These are the best numbers that we have to work with and it took me a grand total of 1 minuted to calculate both of my percentages (This isn't an exaggeration). Of course, these numbers might be a bit overstated due to several reasons but there isn't any reason to consider them bad. If you want to say + or - 10%, I wouldn't think that's unreasonable. Plus, I believe the death rate % that I calculated (3.5%) is in line or slightly better than other countries, which you can use as a high level sense check. Also, I agree that everyone should social distance at this point just out of respect for our elders. I take no comfort or solace that we are "higher or lower" than other countries. All this counting from more sources (countries) just introduces more variables, more misleading statements that are pounced on by opportunistic politicians and brain dead, agenda driven media. ......and most of all it misses the point. We are not better or worse than other countries at this. We all count differently. Even if we could sort out the different methodologies, it will take years. Fighting over meaningless stats (in a rigorous statistical sense) wastes a bunch of time and misses the point. Physically distancing ourselves makes perfect sense everywhere and so does wearing masks when the spacing is tight. I would advise against using any data to make such an obvious point. It's natural to want to have some context to something that is as disturbing as a virus that's causing a worldwide pandemic and rocking our economy. In fact, I would say it would be abnormal not to want to know how dangerous this virus is (Mortality rate & transmission rate) in order to give ourselves some comfort or remind ourselves to be extra vigilant in taking precaution. For example, the worst case scenario for the 2019-2020 flu season (CDC) estimated that the flu had a 0.1% mortality rate. Based on the numbers I calculated, the Corona Virus is 35 times deadlier than the flu (In the US). Knowing this information can alter some (Not all) peoples habits and cause them to be more cautious. Also, these stats are not meaningless and are directly impacting our governments (Federal & State) response to the pandemic and also directly impacting YOUR life. If our scientists are able create new medicines and vaccines that reduce the infection rates and mortality rates then many of the current restrictions will be eased and we may eventually get back to a sense of normalcy (I don't believe we would be able to get back to a pre-pandemic behavior for a very long time, if ever...)
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 24, 2020 14:32:44 GMT -5
If you don't mind me asking, did you have any of the conditions that have been reported to make people more susceptible to severe results from the virus? No, it's the luck of the draw, everything is a percentage. Some people no symptoms, some slight, some flu like, Some more severe than the flu (boderline hospitalization) then Hospitalization then death. I fell into the higher end of that scale but can't complain since I wasn't in the hospital for too long and a lot of good people died. PS, I had the flu many times do to travel for work and while it kicks your butt for a few days, you never feel like that COVID. What I meant to ask was whether you are in a high risk category for this virus because of age, medical conditions, etc. Good to hear that you made it to the other side!
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 24, 2020 14:34:34 GMT -5
I love when people turn the simple common sense of wearing a mask into a freedom issue. As if their rights are somehow infringed because they are asked to be considerate. For me it’s simple.... Freedom of speech does not allow you to run into a movie theater and yell “Fire!” Personal liberty does not allow you to drive 70 mph past a school. And personal choice should not allow you to walk around without a mask during a lethal pandemic. People need to wake up. Every state has laws requiring you to wear a seat belt for your own protection. The number of examples that shoot down the "forcing me to wear a mask is a violation of my civil liberties" crowd seem to be endless.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 24, 2020 15:09:11 GMT -5
I love when people turn the simple common sense of wearing a mask into a freedom issue. As if their rights are somehow infringed because they are asked to be considerate. For me it’s simple.... Freedom of speech does not allow you to run into a movie theater and yell “Fire!” Personal liberty does not allow you to drive 70 mph past a school. And personal choice should not allow you to walk around without a mask during a lethal pandemic. People need to wake up. Every state has laws requiring you to wear a seat belt for your own protection. The number of examples that shoot down the "forcing me to wear a mask is a violation of my civil liberties" crowd seem to be endless. Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time.
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 24, 2020 15:41:40 GMT -5
Every state has laws requiring you to wear a seat belt for your own protection. The number of examples that shoot down the "forcing me to wear a mask is a violation of my civil liberties" crowd seem to be endless. Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time. To be fair, most of the people taking that position do not appear to be constitutional law scholars.
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Post by jb456 on Jul 24, 2020 16:03:53 GMT -5
No, it's the luck of the draw, everything is a percentage. Some people no symptoms, some slight, some flu like, Some more severe than the flu (boderline hospitalization) then Hospitalization then death. I fell into the higher end of that scale but can't complain since I wasn't in the hospital for too long and a lot of good people died. PS, I had the flu many times do to travel for work and while it kicks your butt for a few days, you never feel like that COVID. What I meant to ask was whether you are in a high risk category for this virus because of age, medical conditions, etc. Good to hear that you made it to the other side! Sorry, I wasn't clear. I understood your question and no underlying conditions. Just a little bad luck, hit me the wrong way.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 24, 2020 16:44:26 GMT -5
Every state has laws requiring you to wear a seat belt for your own protection. The number of examples that shoot down the "forcing me to wear a mask is a violation of my civil liberties" crowd seem to be endless. Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time. California. I moved to Nicaragua and a revolution nearly broke out. I moved to Orange country and stupidity broke out.... I'm telling you, the average citizen is smarter in a third-world country where they graduate public school around 13, 14 years old. My guitarist doesn't believe the virus is real, doesn't think masks would help anyway, and if a vaccine is introduced, would refuse to take it anyway... Jeff Spicoli is real. "I'm right because I have a smart phone" is becoming the downfall of modernized society.
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southerner
Starter
Bearer of Bad News
Posts: 4,213
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Post by southerner on Jul 24, 2020 17:08:35 GMT -5
Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time. California. I moved to Nicaragua and a revolution nearly broke out. I moved to Orange country and stupidity broke out.... I'm telling you, the average citizen is smarter in a third-world country where they graduate public school around 13, 14 years old. My guitarist doesn't believe the virus is real, doesn't think masks would help anyway, and if a vaccine is introduced, would refuse to take it anyway... Jeff Spicoli is real. I'm right because I have a smart phone is becoming the downfall of modernized society. Your last comment is more than true. Those growing up in the Facebook, smart phone era are beyond stupid. They believe social media is the absolute truth, the word from God himself.......even though some moron wrote it. It is truly sad as they have given up thinking for themselves and rely on social media to do their thinking for them........straight out of George Orwell’s 1984.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jul 24, 2020 18:16:03 GMT -5
Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time. California. I moved to Nicaragua and a revolution nearly broke out. I moved to Orange country and stupidity broke out.... I'm telling you, the average citizen is smarter in a third-world country where they graduate public school around 13, 14 years old. My guitarist doesn't believe the virus is real, doesn't think masks would help anyway, and if a vaccine is introduced, would refuse to take it anyway... Jeff Spicoli is real. I'm right because I have a smart phone is becoming the downfall of modernized society. It's what Asimov called the cult of ignorance. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political & cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that "my ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge."
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Post by McCherry on Jul 24, 2020 19:48:51 GMT -5
Let's play ball!
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 24, 2020 19:49:46 GMT -5
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Post by Jomo on Jul 24, 2020 20:58:31 GMT -5
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Post by Jomo on Jul 24, 2020 21:05:40 GMT -5
I take no comfort or solace that we are "higher or lower" than other countries. All this counting from more sources (countries) just introduces more variables, more misleading statements that are pounced on by opportunistic politicians and brain dead, agenda driven media. ......and most of all it misses the point. We are not better or worse than other countries at this. We all count differently. Even if we could sort out the different methodologies, it will take years. Fighting over meaningless stats (in a rigorous statistical sense) wastes a bunch of time and misses the point. Physically distancing ourselves makes perfect sense everywhere and so does wearing masks when the spacing is tight. I would advise against using any data to make such an obvious point. It's natural to want to have some context to something that is as disturbing as a virus that's causing a worldwide pandemic and rocking our economy. In fact, I would say it would be abnormal not to want to know how dangerous this virus is (Mortality rate & transmission rate) in order to give ourselves some comfort or remind ourselves to be extra vigilant in taking precaution. For example, the worst case scenario for the 2019-2020 flu season (CDC) estimated that the flu had a 0.1% mortality rate. Based on the numbers I calculated, the Corona Virus is 35 times deadlier than the flu (In the US). Knowing this information can alter some (Not all) peoples habits and cause them to be more cautious. Also, these stats are not meaningless and are directly impacting our governments (Federal & State) response to the pandemic and also directly impacting YOUR life. If our scientists are able create new medicines and vaccines that reduce the infection rates and mortality rates then many of the current restrictions will be eased and we may eventually get back to a sense of normalcy (I don't believe we would be able to get back to a pre-pandemic behavior for a very long time, if ever...) I appreciate your response but you keep making my point for me. How can you compare the COVID "mortality rate" with all its flaws to a flu mortality rate where we have a well deployed vaccine regimen and for which we didn't have a lock down? The numbers are meaningless, aren't they? Let's use the Giants OL as a metaphor for COVID. We don't need data or PFF flawed as they are to explain to us how much our offensive line has sucked over the past few years. In like fashion, can we not accept the gravity of this virus without reaching for marginally credible stats to support the notion that we should: Stay apart from each other Wear masks a large part of the time Be particularly careful with our senior citizens and people with special medical needs?
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Post by idkaname on Jul 24, 2020 22:55:17 GMT -5
Again...media doesn’t even talk about it anymore. With good reason this is ur chances of dying from it (global numbers equated) 0.05909290508751. You guys watch too much news, it’s depressing. The NFL season is 100% on and the players that sit out are (my guess is less than 5%) are paranoid for no reason. Sure it’s contagious but it’s not that crazy
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Post by McCherry on Jul 24, 2020 23:23:48 GMT -5
Again...media doesn’t even talk about it anymore. With good reason this is ur chances of dying from it (global numbers equated) 0.05909290508751. You guys watch too much news, it’s depressing. The NFL season is 100% on and the players that sit out are (my guess is less than 5%) are paranoid for no reason. Sure it’s contagious but it’s not that crazy You're lucky, I wish I lived on the Moon too.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jul 25, 2020 6:20:34 GMT -5
It's natural to want to have some context to something that is as disturbing as a virus that's causing a worldwide pandemic and rocking our economy. In fact, I would say it would be abnormal not to want to know how dangerous this virus is (Mortality rate & transmission rate) in order to give ourselves some comfort or remind ourselves to be extra vigilant in taking precaution. For example, the worst case scenario for the 2019-2020 flu season (CDC) estimated that the flu had a 0.1% mortality rate. Based on the numbers I calculated, the Corona Virus is 35 times deadlier than the flu (In the US). Knowing this information can alter some (Not all) peoples habits and cause them to be more cautious. Also, these stats are not meaningless and are directly impacting our governments (Federal & State) response to the pandemic and also directly impacting YOUR life. If our scientists are able create new medicines and vaccines that reduce the infection rates and mortality rates then many of the current restrictions will be eased and we may eventually get back to a sense of normalcy (I don't believe we would be able to get back to a pre-pandemic behavior for a very long time, if ever...) I appreciate your response but you keep making my point for me. How can you compare the COVID "mortality rate" with all its flaws to a flu mortality rate where we have a well deployed vaccine regimen and for which we didn't have a lock down? The numbers are meaningless, aren't they? Let's use the Giants OL as a metaphor for COVID. We don't need data or PFF flawed as they are to explain to us how much our offensive line has sucked over the past few years. In like fashion, can we not accept the gravity of this virus without reaching for marginally credible stats to support the notion that we should: Stay apart from each other Wear masks a large part of the time Be particularly careful with our senior citizens and people with special medical needs?and wash your hands frequently. The math is pretty simple when you're not looking for actual #'s
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 25, 2020 6:23:56 GMT -5
Every state has laws requiring you to wear a seat belt for your own protection. The number of examples that shoot down the "forcing me to wear a mask is a violation of my civil liberties" crowd seem to be endless. Enjoy this video . It’s less than 3.5 minutes. If our state government recommended that all citizens shave their ass, wear a mask and jump off a bridge I believe 50% would do as they were told, Exactly - this is the type of looney tune no-masker I was talking about.
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 25, 2020 8:29:20 GMT -5
Exactly - this is the type of looney tune no-masker I was talking about. Speaking of looney toons did you see where they caught your Emperor Fauci violating his own mask orders at the Yanks/Nats game pulling his mask down and talking to a friend sitting just inches away! Are you kidding me with this hypocrisy ? Too bad we cant make a vaccine for “Stupid”.. My Emperor Fauci? Not sure that I have ever said anything positive about Fauci on this MB. One thing I do know is that people who think that the mask requirements are a violation of their civil liberties are selfish morons.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 25, 2020 8:44:49 GMT -5
Exactly - this is the type of looney tune no-masker I was talking about. Speaking of looney tunes did you see where they caught your Emperor Fauci violating his own mask orders at the Yanks/Nats game pulling his mask down and talking to a friend sitting just inches away! Are you kidding me with this hypocrisy ? Too bad we cant make a vaccine for “Stupid”..Unfortunately it would be too late for some people here.
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Post by hof56lt on Jul 25, 2020 9:48:47 GMT -5
Speaking of looney toons did you see where they caught your Emperor Fauci violating his own mask orders at the Yanks/Nats game pulling his mask down and talking to a friend sitting just inches away! Are you kidding me with this hypocrisy ? Too bad we cant make a vaccine for “Stupid”.. My Emperor Fauci? Not sure that I have ever said anything positive about Fauci on this MB. One thing I do know is that people who think that the mask requirements are a violation of their civil liberties are selfish morons. My apologies I removed my posts. My wife yelled at me and reminded me that’s not how a Christian should respond. I agreed with her. lol. I can’t wait till this football season gets started.
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Post by TCHOF on Jul 25, 2020 9:54:03 GMT -5
My Emperor Fauci? Not sure that I have ever said anything positive about Fauci on this MB. One thing I do know is that people who think that the mask requirements are a violation of their civil liberties are selfish morons. My apologies I removed my posts. My wife yelled at me and reminded me that’s not how a Christian should respond. I agreed with her. lol. I can’t wait till this football season gets started. No need for apologies ... we are in crazy times. I should probably take your wife’s advice too!
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Post by McCherry on Jul 25, 2020 11:44:58 GMT -5
My apologies I removed my posts. My wife yelled at me and reminded me that’s not how a Christian should respond. I agreed with her. lol. I can’t wait till this football season gets started. No need for apologies ... we are in crazy times. I should probably take your wife’s advice too! We should all be as smart as our wives.
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Post by keyofgmen on Jul 25, 2020 12:58:06 GMT -5
No need for apologies ... we are in crazy times. I should probably take your wife’s advice too! We should all be as smart as our wives. Our wife's chose to marry many of us... Smart? Not good evidence!....
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Post by scoostraw on Jul 25, 2020 13:39:06 GMT -5
I love when people turn the simple common sense of wearing a mask into a freedom issue. As if their rights are somehow infringed because they are asked to be considerate. It's not just a case of being considerate, it's for the good of us all.
We are all in this together.
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Post by scoostraw on Jul 25, 2020 13:41:17 GMT -5
Speaking of looney toons did you see where they caught your Emperor Fauci violating his own mask orders at the Yanks/Nats game pulling his mask down and talking to a friend sitting just inches away! Are you kidding me with this hypocrisy ? Too bad we cant make a vaccine for “Stupid”.. My Emperor Fauci? Not sure that I have ever said anything positive about Fauci on this MB. One thing I do know is that people who think that the mask requirements are a violation of their civil liberties are selfish morons. This is what we need a vaccine for.
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desertash
Starter
The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain
Posts: 2,504
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Post by desertash on Aug 17, 2020 16:27:30 GMT -5
Nah, your math is incorrect (That's all I do for a living). Its 140,000 (Deaths) / 4,000,000 (Infected) = 3.5% mortality rate. Oh and you did your death rate vs. total us population incorrectly also (It's 140,0000 / 331,000,000 = 0.042296%) Oh my God I must've put in a extra digit. Facepalming so hard. I feel like a total buffoon. Well my point still stands. That makes sense because last I checked a month ago the death rate was 4%. I was shocked by it being so low. So sorry about that. Thank you so much for sticking to your point and proving me wrong!!! not...so...much....sweet backpedal
your initial math was already proven misleading
and this is an order of magnitude deadlier than the seasonal flu
disruption, discord, disinfo, distrust...all these things need to be addressed
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desertash
Starter
The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion our adversaries are insane. - Mark Twain
Posts: 2,504
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Post by desertash on Aug 17, 2020 16:31:48 GMT -5
Agreed. I cannot wrap my simple mind around their definitions of freedom and civil liberty. Normally it’s just their own lives that they put at risk. Not this time. California. I moved to Nicaragua and a revolution nearly broke out. I moved to Orange country and stupidity broke out.... I'm telling you, the average citizen is smarter in a third-world country where they graduate public school around 13, 14 years old. My guitarist doesn't believe the virus is real, doesn't think masks would help anyway, and if a vaccine is introduced, would refuse to take it anyway... Jeff Spicoli is real. "I'm right because I have a smart phone" is becoming the downfall of modernized society. Had a front-line nurse here in Phx tell me he thought masks were worthless and to let this thing run its course.
I think he had ptsd...it was a very odd convo.
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