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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 10:02:35 GMT -5
I would think It's Judge's ass on the line if the team doesn't win. I don't see how it's anyone else's fault if the Giants can't win with all this talent on the roster. Well, if It turns out that Jones isn’t “the guy” at QB we aren’t going to win a lot of games. You would put that on Judge? Read my post following the one you’re replying to.
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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 10:12:10 GMT -5
I would think It's Judge's ass on the line if the team doesn't win. I don't see how it's anyone else's fault if the Giants can't win with all this talent on the roster. I don't think I agree, unless we're 6-10 again. Is JJ 40 yet? Straight from a position coach to HC and starting with a rebuilding and losing team. I think he will be a great coach and needs time to get some more experience. Not too many started their tenure as a HC at such an early age, and were successful quickly. He's going to make mistakes as he learns, but his ceiling is high. The characteristics of this guy were such that BB personally took him under his wing because he saw the signs of a budding good coach. Mara will be disappointed if we have anything worse than 8-8, but he'll have patience, and I'd agree with that. Well, there is no more 8-8. I don't think the Giants would’ve hired Judge to wait 3 years for him to grow up. There are millions of dollars at stake, this is real big boys at work now. If he doesn't win the media and fans will turn on him and he'll be coaching for his job in year 3. in this division there are just no excuses.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 4, 2021 10:34:30 GMT -5
I don't think I agree, unless we're 6-10 again. Is JJ 40 yet? Straight from a position coach to HC and starting with a rebuilding and losing team. I think he will be a great coach and needs time to get some more experience. Not too many started their tenure as a HC at such an early age, and were successful quickly. He's going to make mistakes as he learns, but his ceiling is high. The characteristics of this guy were such that BB personally took him under his wing because he saw the signs of a budding good coach. Mara will be disappointed if we have anything worse than 8-8, but he'll have patience, and I'd agree with that. there are just no excuses. and this is what its all about
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Post by Zimonami on Apr 4, 2021 10:36:02 GMT -5
I don't think I agree, unless we're 6-10 again. Is JJ 40 yet? Straight from a position coach to HC and starting with a rebuilding and losing team. I think he will be a great coach and needs time to get some more experience. Not too many started their tenure as a HC at such an early age, and were successful quickly. He's going to make mistakes as he learns, but his ceiling is high. The characteristics of this guy were such that BB personally took him under his wing because he saw the signs of a budding good coach. Mara will be disappointed if we have anything worse than 8-8, but he'll have patience, and I'd agree with that. Well, there is no more 8-8. I don't think the Giants would’ve hired Judge to wait 3 years for him to grow up. There are millions of dollars at stake, this is real big boys at work now. If he doesn't win the media and fans will turn on him and he'll be coaching for his job in year 3. in this division there are just no excuses. And then we will have thrown away one of the future great coaches in the NFL... just like Bill B was tossed out of Cleveland. How did that work out? Patience is a virtue. People may feel that instant gratification is needed, especially after years of losing. Sometimes the parts don't quite fit for a while, but constantly changing them is counterproductive to developing stability. Jumping off JJ's bandwagon and inserting another possible McAdoo or Shurmur is definitely not the answer. Stay the course. The long term payoff is at risk. Patience will be rewarded in this case... mark my words.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 4, 2021 10:45:10 GMT -5
Well, there is no more 8-8. I don't think the Giants would’ve hired Judge to wait 3 years for him to grow up. There are millions of dollars at stake, this is real big boys at work now. If he doesn't win the media and fans will turn on him and he'll be coaching for his job in year 3. in this division there are just no excuses. And then we will have thrown away one of the future great coaches in the NFL... just like Bill B was tossed out of Cleveland. How did that work out? Patience is a virtue. People may feel that instant gratification is needed, especially after years of losing. Sometimes the parts don't quite fit for a while, but constantly changing them is counterproductive to developing stability. Jumping off JJ's bandwagon and inserting another possible McAdoo or Shurmur is definitely not the answer. Stay the course. The long term payoff is at risk. Patience will be rewarded in this case... mark my words. problem is its only Judge's 2nd season but its many season of losing and the FO trying to get it right. Jones' season #3 which is the make or break now in the NFL for a potential franchise QB. Would like to be patient with Judge but he is caught up in the shuffle of its this year or things will be turned over again.
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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 10:46:38 GMT -5
Well, there is no more 8-8. I don't think the Giants would’ve hired Judge to wait 3 years for him to grow up. There are millions of dollars at stake, this is real big boys at work now. If he doesn't win the media and fans will turn on him and he'll be coaching for his job in year 3. in this division there are just no excuses. And then we will have thrown away one of the future great coaches in the NFL... just like Bill B was tossed out of Cleveland. How did that work out? Patience is a virtue. People may feel that instant gratification is needed, especially after years of losing. Sometimes the parts don't quite fit for a while, but constantly changing them is counterproductive to developing stability. Jumping off JJ's bandwagon and inserting another possible McAdoo or Shurmur is definitely not the answer. Stay the course. The long term payoff is at risk. Patience will be rewarded in this case... mark my words. If you can't win in 3 seasons you're not an NFL coach. It's not like the old days. Again, I like him too, but he’s a 6-10 coach. He needs to do more than talk.
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Post by Zimonami on Apr 4, 2021 10:49:32 GMT -5
And then we will have thrown away one of the future great coaches in the NFL... just like Bill B was tossed out of Cleveland. How did that work out? Patience is a virtue. People may feel that instant gratification is needed, especially after years of losing. Sometimes the parts don't quite fit for a while, but constantly changing them is counterproductive to developing stability. Jumping off JJ's bandwagon and inserting another possible McAdoo or Shurmur is definitely not the answer. Stay the course. The long term payoff is at risk. Patience will be rewarded in this case... mark my words. problem is its only Judge's 2nd season but its many season of losing and the FO trying to get it right. Jones' season #3 which is the make or break now in the NFL for a potential franchise QB. Would like to be patient with Judge but he is caught up in the shuffle of its this year or things will be turned over again. And then that will be just more time wasted in trying to develop a stable winner. I honestly think Mara is willing to wait on Judge. Perhaps nt DJ or DG, but JJ should be good for a while.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 4, 2021 10:52:36 GMT -5
problem is its only Judge's 2nd season but its many season of losing and the FO trying to get it right. Jones' season #3 which is the make or break now in the NFL for a potential franchise QB. Would like to be patient with Judge but he is caught up in the shuffle of its this year or things will be turned over again. And then that will be just more time wasted in trying to develop a stable winner. I honestly think Mara is willing to wait on Judge. Perhaps nt DJ or DG, but JJ should be good for a while. agreed.... Judge would make it through another tear down if it comes to that
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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 10:57:30 GMT -5
And then that will be just more time wasted in trying to develop a stable winner. I honestly think Mara is willing to wait on Judge. Perhaps nt DJ or DG, but JJ should be good for a while. agreed.... Judge would make it through another tear down if it comes to that I don't know what he's accomplished to deserve that. Even Coughlin was shown the door after 3 losing seasons. If he doesn't win this year Mara will not be happy.
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Post by Zimonami on Apr 4, 2021 11:02:41 GMT -5
And then we will have thrown away one of the future great coaches in the NFL... just like Bill B was tossed out of Cleveland. How did that work out? Patience is a virtue. People may feel that instant gratification is needed, especially after years of losing. Sometimes the parts don't quite fit for a while, but constantly changing them is counterproductive to developing stability. Jumping off JJ's bandwagon and inserting another possible McAdoo or Shurmur is definitely not the answer. Stay the course. The long term payoff is at risk. Patience will be rewarded in this case... mark my words. If you can't win in 3 seasons you're not an NFL coach. It's not like the old days. Again, I like him too, but he’s a 6-10 coach. He needs to do more than talk. That's about as narrow minded as you can get. Do more than "talk"? What talk has JJ made? Claims? He hasn't bragged and he hasn't promised. A musical chairs approach at coach is not going to suddenly produce a coach who will come in and win. Elements of the game, and especially the players have changed over the years, but the time needed to establish stability for a team does not suddenly occur by switching key pieces like the coach in the process. Don't give me those "Old Days" BS when it comes to finding a good coach. This team was total crap up to last year... the players sucked and so did the coaches. That has improved considerably since 2019 season. There is no Instant Gratification just because the fans and FO want it. Now... you tell me how a really good coach is developed differently in these New Days, as compared to the old days? What about Reid. What suddenly changed that made him a failure in Philly, but a winner in KC? It was the players... not him. New Days, Old Days? BS. A good coach in the 60's would be a good coach today if you gave him the players.
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Post by Zimonami on Apr 4, 2021 11:04:06 GMT -5
agreed.... Judge would make it through another tear down if it comes to that I don't know what he's accomplished to deserve that. Even Coughlin was shown the door after 3 losing seasons. If he doesn't win this year Mara will not be happy. TC was shown the door because he was no longer the same coach. His age caught up to him. His time management alone was an aspect where you could definitely see that he was no longer sharp enough to coach a team competently. The digression in mental acuity is what caught up to him... nothing else.
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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 11:17:46 GMT -5
If you can't win in 3 seasons you're not an NFL coach. It's not like the old days. Again, I like him too, but he’s a 6-10 coach. He needs to do more than talk. That's about as narrow minded as you can get. Do more than "talk"? What talk has JJ made? Claims? He hasn't bragged and he hasn't promised. A musical chairs approach at coach is not going to suddenly produce a coach who will come in and win. Elements of the game, and especially the players have changed over the years, but the time needed to establish stability for a team does not suddenly occur by switching key pieces like the coach in the process. Don't give me those "Old Days" BS when it comes to finding a good coach. This team was total crap up to last year... the players sucked and so did the coaches. That has improved considerably since 2019 season. There is no Instant Gratification just because the fans and FO want it. Now... you tell me how a really good coach is developed differently in these New Days, as compared to the old days? What about Reid. What suddenly changed that made him a failure in Philly, but a winner in KC? It was the players... not him. New Days, Old Days? BS. A good coach in the 60's would be a good coach today if you gave him the players. Expecting to win in 3 years isn't instant gratification. Most coaches are fired after 2 losing seasons. No coach survives 3 losing seasons in today's NFL. That's just a fact. It was very different in the old days before free agency when there was certainly more patience for a coach to win. I like Judge and I absolutely expect a winning season in 2021. They are talented enough to win, if we don't because of coaching inexperience nobody is going to be alright with that.
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Post by GameTime on Apr 4, 2021 11:18:03 GMT -5
agreed.... Judge would make it through another tear down if it comes to that I don't know what he's accomplished to deserve that. Even Coughlin was shown the door after 3 losing seasons. If he doesn't win this year Mara will not be happy. doesnt matter what we think and I am just making an educated quess.
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Post by Zimonami on Apr 4, 2021 11:32:38 GMT -5
That's about as narrow minded as you can get. Do more than "talk"? What talk has JJ made? Claims? He hasn't bragged and he hasn't promised. A musical chairs approach at coach is not going to suddenly produce a coach who will come in and win. Elements of the game, and especially the players have changed over the years, but the time needed to establish stability for a team does not suddenly occur by switching key pieces like the coach in the process. Don't give me those "Old Days" BS when it comes to finding a good coach. This team was total crap up to last year... the players sucked and so did the coaches. That has improved considerably since 2019 season. There is no Instant Gratification just because the fans and FO want it. Now... you tell me how a really good coach is developed differently in these New Days, as compared to the old days? What about Reid. What suddenly changed that made him a failure in Philly, but a winner in KC? It was the players... not him. New Days, Old Days? BS. A good coach in the 60's would be a good coach today if you gave him the players. Expecting to win in 3 years isn't instant gratification. Most coaches are fired after 2 losing seasons. No coach survives 3 losing seasons in today's NFL. That's just a fact. It was very different in the old days before free agency when there was certainly more patience for a coach to win. I like Judge and I absolutely expect a winning season in 2021. They are talented enough to win, if we don't because of coaching inexperience nobody is going to be alright with that. Tom Landry lost, badly, in every season for his first 5 years in Dallas... then had a 7-7 year. Then he had 20 straight winning seasons, and 5 appearances in the SB. Throwing him away after 5 losing seasons would have been a great mistake. Sometimes a good coach just doesn't have the right pieces, and the ability to develop continuity with crap players. Once he does, and has a good matching GM... To toss Judge away if this team doesn't win quickly is a move that the NY Giant organization will regret. The key to developing a winning organization is not based on impatience and constant changes.
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Post by Jomo on Apr 4, 2021 11:43:07 GMT -5
I don’t know about that. I keep reading that this is Joe Judge’s team. And he makes all of the decisions. Point being there was plenty of blame to go around for the last bunch of years but most of the posts direct it all at the GM. In 2018 the owner wanted to build around Eli. So he definitely shares in the blame. Couple that with a horrible inherited roster. Reese shares in the blame. There were plenty of mistakes in 2018. Plenty of blame to go around. Not just the GM. 2 years of Shurmur. A very good coordinator but a horrible HC. He shares in the blame. 2019. A rookie QB. Teams usually have rough years with a rookie QB. Excuses yeah, but valid excuses. I look at this team and see some holes, but, 2 coaches later and a new QB, a much better team than it was at the start of 2018. At the end of 2017 it was the worst Giant team I had ever seen and they had a great WR and a 2 time SB MVP QB in the lineup. That’s how bad the rest of the team was. Nobody complained when they signed Solder and got rid of Flowers. Didn’t work out but at the time, it was the right move. Tons of people complained when they traded Beckham. Addition by subtraction. To this day, still the right move. Lots of people wanted Darnold or Rosen. Where are they three years in? I thought our GM had the best off season in the league last year. This year was another strong off season. I know that doesn’t mean anything until the wins come but the idea is that the choices they made will pay dividends on the scoreboard this year. At this point it’s all about Jones. The rest is just window dressing. The GM is in charge of the team. If he is just following John Mara’s football plan for the team, why is he even here? Didn’t Gettleman hire Shurmur? Can’t hire a coach and then use him as an excuse. The Gettleman decision that pisses me off the most was drafting DeAndre Baker. The word was out there that this kid was a dog, and Gettleman either ignored it or didn’t do any due diligence whatsoever on the kid. He basically just tossed away a first round pick. GM malpractice of the highest order. I agree that Gettleman has done some good things too, and that the arrow appears to be trending up. His entire legacy will likely depend on Jones. If he turns into a franchise QB, most will forget Gettleman’s early missteps. If Jones flops, Gettleman will forever be a NYG punchline. Baker was a reach for position and it blew up. Bad, bad choice by DG and he should have known better. Kind of a book-end with Apple. JR should have known better (except that Apple has hung around a couple of years). A team needs to take some chances in the middle to late rounds but in the 1st and 2nd rounds, you need to know exactly what makes the kid tick. His teammates know it, his college coaches know it, our FO NEEDS to know it.
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Post by Morehead State on Apr 4, 2021 14:01:32 GMT -5
Expecting to win in 3 years isn't instant gratification. Most coaches are fired after 2 losing seasons. No coach survives 3 losing seasons in today's NFL. That's just a fact. It was very different in the old days before free agency when there was certainly more patience for a coach to win. I like Judge and I absolutely expect a winning season in 2021. They are talented enough to win, if we don't because of coaching inexperience nobody is going to be alright with that. Tom Landry lost, badly, in every season for his first 5 years in Dallas... then had a 7-7 year. Then he had 20 straight winning seasons, and 5 appearances in the SB. Throwing him away after 5 losing seasons would have been a great mistake. Sometimes a good coach just doesn't have the right pieces, and the ability to develop continuity with crap players. Once he does, and has a good matching GM... To toss Judge away if this team doesn't win quickly is a move that the NY Giant organization will regret. The key to developing a winning organization is not based on impatience and constant changes. No free agency. No salary cap. Teams owned rights to players.
Dallas didn't even get to draft in their first season because they were awarded the franchise after the draft.
That was REALLY the era of the 5 year plan. Now we are trying to pass on that same standard to out franchise in today's NFL where much quicker turn around are common.
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Post by Delicreep on Apr 4, 2021 14:47:10 GMT -5
Pretty sure that this off season makes the statement that the Giants are in a win now mode. Absolutely. They have to win this year. Not just show progress. Hypothetically...Gmen go 11 and 6 and the team gets there with absolutely outstanding play from Jones. Does the football world at large credit Dave or Joe?
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Post by Kruunch on Apr 4, 2021 15:04:38 GMT -5
Absolutely. They have to win this year. Not just show progress. Hypothetically...Gmen go 11 and 6 and the team gets there with absolutely outstanding play from Jones. Does the football world at large credit Dave or Joe? That’s easy. All the credit should go to God. Only he would be able to achieve the unthinkable. Daniel Jones playing “outstanding.”
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Post by Roswell on Apr 4, 2021 16:39:52 GMT -5
If you can't win in 3 seasons you're not an NFL coach. It's not like the old days. Again, I like him too, but he’s a 6-10 coach. He needs to do more than talk. That's about as narrow minded as you can get. Do more than "talk"? What talk has JJ made? Claims? He hasn't bragged and he hasn't promised. A musical chairs approach at coach is not going to suddenly produce a coach who will come in and win. Elements of the game, and especially the players have changed over the years, but the time needed to establish stability for a team does not suddenly occur by switching key pieces like the coach in the process. Don't give me those "Old Days" BS when it comes to finding a good coach. This team was total crap up to last year... the players sucked and so did the coaches. That has improved considerably since 2019 season. There is no Instant Gratification just because the fans and FO want it. Now... you tell me how a really good coach is developed differently in these New Days, as compared to the old days? What about Reid. What suddenly changed that made him a failure in Philly, but a winner in KC? It was the players... not him. New Days, Old Days? BS. A good coach in the 60's would be a good coach today if you gave him the players. Amen brother Zim.
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Post by Delicreep on Apr 4, 2021 16:44:22 GMT -5
Hypothetically...Gmen go 11 and 6 and the team gets there with absolutely outstanding play from Jones. Does the football world at large credit Dave or Joe? That’s easy. All the credit should go to God. Only he would be able to achieve the unthinkable. Daniel Jones playing “outstanding.” Soooo...Joe.
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Post by Roswell on Apr 4, 2021 16:54:44 GMT -5
Absolutely. They have to win this year. Not just show progress. Hypothetically...Gmen go 11 and 6 and the team gets there with absolutely outstanding play from Jones. Does the football world at large credit Dave or Joe? By football world are you including the fans as well?
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Post by Delicreep on Apr 4, 2021 17:35:05 GMT -5
Hypothetically...Gmen go 11 and 6 and the team gets there with absolutely outstanding play from Jones. Does the football world at large credit Dave or Joe? By football world are you including the fans as well? Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included.
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Post by Roswell on Apr 4, 2021 17:47:47 GMT -5
By football world are you including the fans as well? Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included. If the Giants show real progress, (like winning the division with 10+ wins), I think that the football world will look at the situation and say DG has been here for four years but it wasn’t until Judge showed up that they started winning. This would be true, but it would also be unfair to not give the GM some of the credit for the recent moves he has made. As far as the narrative of the 15-33 crowd? It’s a forgone conclusion.
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Post by Delicreep on Apr 4, 2021 18:11:34 GMT -5
Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included. If the Giants show real progress, (like winning the division with 10+ wins), I think that the football world will look at the situation and say DG has been here for four years but it wasn’t until Judge showed up that they started winning. This would be true, but it would also be unfair to not give the GM some of the credit for the recent moves he has made. As far as the narrative of the 15-33 crowd? It’s a forgone conclusion. I actually think that there is very few occasions where the GM becomes more associated with a player than a HC if there is success. Can't think TC without thinking Eli, right?
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Post by Roswell on Apr 4, 2021 18:52:46 GMT -5
If the Giants show real progress, (like winning the division with 10+ wins), I think that the football world will look at the situation and say DG has been here for four years but it wasn’t until Judge showed up that they started winning. This would be true, but it would also be unfair to not give the GM some of the credit for the recent moves he has made. As far as the narrative of the 15-33 crowd? It’s a forgone conclusion. I actually think that there is very few occasions where the GM becomes more associated with a player than a HC if there is success. Can't think TC without thinking Eli, right? By and large winning is credited more to the coach and QB. As you say, a lot more tandems than trios that would include a GM. When the Steel Curtain was the Steel Curtain, who was the GM?
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Post by Delicreep on Apr 4, 2021 19:13:18 GMT -5
I actually think that there is very few occasions where the GM becomes more associated with a player than a HC if there is success. Can't think TC without thinking Eli, right? By and large winning is credited more to the coach and QB. As you say, a lot more tandems than trios that would include a GM. When the Steel Curtain was the Steel Curtain, who was the GM? No clue...and I am sure there a a hundred great examples like this.
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Post by Sarcasman on Apr 4, 2021 20:59:01 GMT -5
By football world are you including the fans as well? Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included. As much as I want the team to start being a real NFL team again, I really, really can't wait for all the media to get drunk on the Gettelman redemption story and start heaping praise on him. Just to annoy Morehead.
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Post by McCherry on Apr 4, 2021 21:07:45 GMT -5
Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included. If the Giants show real progress, (like winning the division with 10+ wins), I think that the football world will look at the situation and say DG has been here for four years but it wasn’t until Judge showed up that they started winning. This would be true, but it would also be unfair to not give the GM some of the credit for the recent moves he has made. As far as the narrative of the 15-33 crowd? It’s a forgone conclusion. I think the football world will say that Pat Shurmur was a historically awful head coach. But if the Giants win, it will because of Daniel Jones, Barkley. To a lesser extent Dexter Lawrence, Andrew Thomas, Bradford, Golloday... Gettleman took the criticism for the Jones/Barkley, he'll wear the crown for drafting those players when we win.
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Post by Morehead State on Apr 4, 2021 22:24:38 GMT -5
By football world are you including the fans as well? Well...not Morehead, but yes. Fans included. I'm the only "football world" I'm interested in.
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Post by TheAnalyst on Jan 11, 2022 12:57:51 GMT -5
I was trying to read through this a little bit. Its tough....
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