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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 16:20:51 GMT -5
The truth is they don't. 75% of the pass plays in the NFL are within 15 yards of the LOS. Each team is almost identical with in 10 precentage points. Burning stats is like burning books to ignore they exist. It does not change them and usually fails to push the desired outcome. But the absolute indisputable fact is that if you don't have multiple weapons on the field at all times that make defenses have to defend the entire field you can't have a good short game The past 2 Super Bowl winners proved this 100% fact Shepard doesn't scare defenses . He does not have to . He is not the #1 this year. He does not have to be. He just has to move the chains or set up moving the chains. I know when it is 3rd down and manageable. You go to the best hands and route runner on the team. Teams are going to be so worried about Toney, Golladay and Barkley. Shepard will slip through that Defense like a shadow.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 16:27:31 GMT -5
But the absolute indisputable fact is that if you don't have multiple weapons on the field at all times that make defenses have to defend the entire field you can't have a good short game The past 2 Super Bowl winners proved this 100% fact Shepard doesn't scare defenses . He does not have to . He is not the #1 this year. He does not have to be. He just has to move the chains or set up moving the chains. I know when it 3 down you go to the best hands and route runner on the team. Teams are going to be so worried about Toney and Golladay. Shepard will slip through that Defense like a shadow. But that still doesn't change the fact you need as many playmalers on the team to force defenders back Shepard will be competing with Toney for reps and eventually lose reps to him as Toney gets better Whidh means your opening day outside starting WRs (because it's rare a rookie is am instant impact starter day 1 at WR )will be Golladay and Slayton (unless he is injured or flat out sucks)because those are the 2 best WRs to have a modern type offense Facts
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 16:36:19 GMT -5
He does not have to . He is not the #1 this year. He does not have to be. He just has to move the chains or set up moving the chains. I know when it 3 down you go to the best hands and route runner on the team. Teams are going to be so worried about Toney and Golladay. Shepard will slip through that Defense like a shadow. But that still doesn't change the fact you need as many playmalers on the team to force defenders back Shepard will be competing with Toney for reps and eventually lose reps to him as Toney gets better Whidh means your opening day outside starting WRs (because it's rare a rookie is am instant impact starter day 1 at WR )will be Golladay and Slayton (unless he is injured or flat out sucks)because those are the 2 best WRs to have a modern type offense Facts If Slayton is one of our best receivers.. We are screwed. His 52% overall and 35%on deep ball receptions . Are both in the bottom 3rd of the league. If he cannot run consistent routes . How is it possible he is the 2nd best on the team? To use your 2 examples: On modern offenses. The Chiefs' #2 Haardman had a 66.1% Tampa's #2 Godwin had a 77.4
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 16:47:15 GMT -5
But that still doesn't change the fact you need as many playmalers on the team to force defenders back Shepard will be competing with Toney for reps and eventually lose reps to him as Toney gets better Whidh means your opening day outside starting WRs (because it's rare a rookie is am instant impact starter day 1 at WR )will be Golladay and Slayton (unless he is injured or flat out sucks)because those are the 2 best WRs to have a modern type offense Facts If Slayton is one of our best receivers.. We are screwed. His 52% overall and 35%on deep ball receptions . Are both in the bottom 3rd of the league. If he cannot run consistent routes . How is it possible he is the 2nd best on the team? How about let him have a complete training camp in his 2nd year in this system and 3rd year in the league before saying this All he needs to be in this offense now that Golladay takes all the pressure off of him opposite him and another year of coaching and working with Jones is a 65 -70 catch guy for 15 a pop to be what I feel his ceiling is A high end dynamic comment opposite Golladay that forces teams to have to defend the entire field. I'm sorry but I see Shepard as a number 4 if things work out the way I think it can
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 16:58:11 GMT -5
If Slayton is one of our best receivers.. We are screwed. His 52% overall and 35%on deep ball receptions . Are both in the bottom 3rd of the league. If he cannot run consistent routes . How is it possible he is the 2nd best on the team? How about let him have a complete training camp in his 2nd year in this system and 3rd year in the league before saying this All he needs to be in this offense now that Golladay takes all the pressure off of him opposite him and another year of coaching and working with Jones is a 65 -70 catch guy for 15 a pop to be what I feel his ceiling is A high end dynamic comment opposite Golladay that forces teams to have to defend the entire field. I'm sorry but I see Shepard as a number 4 if things work out the way I think it can He was subpar in his rookie year also. I could vet you point if he was not on the bottom of all players that had passes thrown at them on giants. A bad reciever group both years with the exception being Shepard. How is it possible he was on the bottom of that group both years in reception precentage? Come on GL it is bad when practice squad players put themselves in a better position to catch the ball than he does. He better not just compete in camp. He better shine like a super nova. I hope he does and proves me wrong.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 17:06:07 GMT -5
How about let him have a complete training camp in his 2nd year in this system and 3rd year in the league before saying this All he needs to be in this offense now that Golladay takes all the pressure off of him opposite him and another year of coaching and working with Jones is a 65 -70 catch guy for 15 a pop to be what I feel his ceiling is A high end dynamic comment opposite Golladay that forces teams to have to defend the entire field. I'm sorry but I see Shepard as a number 4 if things work out the way I think it can He was subpar in his rookie year also. I could vet you point if he was not on the bottom of all players that had passes thrown at them on giants. A bad reciever group both years with the exception being Shepard. How is it possible he was on the bottom of that group both years in reception precentage? Come on GL it is bad when practice squad players put themselves in a better position to catch the ball than he does. Because he came into the league very raw as a route runner and still learning?(also facts when you see his scouting report that he would take up to 3 of 4 years to fully develop) We are on year 3 He still has put up decent numbers despite being the only receiver that teams had to account for Stats ans numbers mean nothing as they can be twisted to spin a narrative but the fact is that you need as many playmalers that scare a defense into having to defend the entire field on the field as possible in this era Shepard isn't one of these and shouldn't be on the field if Toney develops unless it's a 3rd down type situation or 2 minute type drill in a 4 WR set
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 17:12:31 GMT -5
He was subpar in his rookie year also. I could vet you point if he was not on the bottom of all players that had passes thrown at them on giants. A bad reciever group both years with the exception being Shepard. How is it possible he was on the bottom of that group both years in reception precentage? Come on GL it is bad when practice squad players put themselves in a better position to catch the ball than he does. Because he came into the league very raw as a route runner and still learning?(also facts when you see his scouting report that he would take up to 3 of 4 years to fully develop) We are on year 3 He still has put up decent numbers despite being the only receiver that teams had to account for Stats ans numbers mean nothing as they can be twisted to spin a narrative but the fact is that you need as many playmalers that scare a defense into having to defend the entire field on the field as possible in this era Shepard isn't one of these and shouldn't be on the field if Toney develops unless it's a 3rd down type situation or 2 minute type drill in a 4 WR set Shepard catches the ball when it is thrown at him. That is undisputable. He'll be on the field. If stats mean nothing. Why does every team have an analytics department ? And you are the proponent of the modern offense. Stats are a big part of it.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 17:23:43 GMT -5
Because he came into the league very raw as a route runner and still learning?(also facts when you see his scouting report that he would take up to 3 of 4 years to fully develop) We are on year 3 He still has put up decent numbers despite being the only receiver that teams had to account for Stats ans numbers mean nothing as they can be twisted to spin a narrative but the fact is that you need as many playmalers that scare a defense into having to defend the entire field on the field as possible in this era Shepard isn't one of these and shouldn't be on the field if Toney develops unless it's a 3rd down type situation or 2 minute type drill in a 4 WR set Shepard catches the ball when it is thrown at him. That is undisputable. He'll be on the field. If stats mean nothing. Why does every team have an analytics department ? And you are the proponent of the modern offense. Stats are a big part of it. So is eyeball test,film,tape.. The indisputable fact again is that the past 2 super bowl winners had dynamic big play recievers all over the field that forced defenses to have to defend the entire field,which opens everything else up Shepard doesn't frighten anyone and as flawed as you say Slayton is he did have to be accounted for all year Moreno than any reciever on the team
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 17:41:27 GMT -5
Shepard catches the ball when it is thrown at him. That is undisputable. He'll be on the field. If stats mean nothing. Why does every team have an analytics department ? And you are the proponent of the modern offense. Stats are a big part of it. So is eyeball test,film,tape.. The indisputable fact again is that the past 2 super bowl winners had dynamic big play recievers all over the field that forced defenses to have to defend the entire field,which opens everything else up Shepard doesn't frighten anyone and as flawed as you say Slayton is he did have to be accounted for all year Moreno than any reciever on the team Eyeball, film, tape. Can show the outcome of a given situation of that play in that game . Analytics will show the outcome of a given situation of that play in all games. It gives the coach the tool of outcome odds to make a better decision. I agree. Those 2 teams have playmakers. Both of the #2 receivers have never been below the 60 percentile in receptions that includes their rookie seasons. Godwin had the interception machine Winston throwing to him for 3 years .FYI Shepard has never been under 61.7%. Slayton has never been out of the 50s. If he is in the 50s during preseason games against the soon to be selling insurance. That won't bode well for him Listen to yourself about Shepard .He played 4 games lass than Slayton . Had only 95 yards less than Slayton. He was on pace 900 yard in a 16 game season. Who wouldn't want that player on the field? Shepard had just as many TDs in 12 games as Slayton playing in16. Godwin had 840 on pace for 1100 Hardman had 560
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 20, 2021 17:53:18 GMT -5
You seem to be taking a lot of hard stances here and I'm not sure why. For one, "us Slayton guys" are simply pointing out reasons why we think he can succeed. This whole, "we'll see who is right" is an odd stance for a Giants fan to have when talking about Giants players. If Slayton does work, we'll all be happy. If Slayton doesn't work, but Toney/Pettis/Ross does, we'll all be happy. Win-win. You're not wrong, the expectation for 1st and 2nd rounders should typically be for them to start Day 1. The problem with that golden rule is all teams and situations in football aren't equal. The Giants are a perfect example. Going into the draft, WR was no longer a glaring need due to the additions we made in FA. LB was. Drafting Toney has the potential to make what looked to be a good WR group very good....maybe even great. He's the icing on the cake. It's not apples to apples, but the concept is similar to when we drafted JPP and already had a great DE group. We made a strength stronger. Whether Toney ends up as a full time starter or a situational player doesn't matter his rookie year. What matters is his impact should be felt either way, and he's a big part of our long term plans. Drafting Azeez, on the other hand, fills an immediate hole. We had nobody else. Azeez steps in Day 1 as the Alpha, so the expectation is for him to start. Plain and simple. In my opinion, the fact we're actually having discussions around who should start shows how far the Giants have come as a team. These are problems teams with talent and depth typically have. It's a nice change of pace. The JPP pick was not to a 6 win team . The giants could afford to sit him for a year. I am sick of have Backups as our week one starters. It has and always will be a recipe for failure. I said it's not apples to apples, but we won 8 games in 2009.....splitting hairs. Slayton has also proven he is better than a backup. So, there's that. I don't want to make excuses for anyone, but Slayton is a 5th round pick who has played over his skis since getting in the league. Last year he was forced to be the #1 option on the outside, which I believe we all agree he's not. At this point, he should be the 3rd option on most teams, 2nd option at best. We now have KG manning the outside and Shep holding down the slot. Slayton can line up opposite KG, against the CB2 or CB3, and attack defenses deep. This is the type of role he's built for. If we're discussing players who could lose substantial snaps to Toney, I actually think Shepard is the one most at risk. As much as I'm a fan of his, we can move on from his contract after this year with minimal penalty and he's always hurt. Perhaps the plan is to groom Toney to be Shep's replacement. When it's all said and done, I expect KG, Shep, and Slayton to be the starters week 1, and I expect there to be a rotation of players each game.
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 18:06:29 GMT -5
The JPP pick was not to a 6 win team . The giants could afford to sit him for a year. I am sick of have Backups as our week one starters. It has and always will be a recipe for failure. I said it's not apples to apples, but we won 8 games in 2009.....splitting hairs. Slayton has also proven he is better than a backup. So, there's that. I don't want to make excuses for anyone, but Slayton is a 5th round pick who has played over his skis since getting in the league. Last year he was forced to be the #1 option on the outside, which I believe we all agree he's not. At this point, he should be the 3rd option on most teams, 2nd option at best. We now have KG manning the outside and Shep holding down the slot. Slayton can line up opposite KG, against the CB2 or CB3, and attack defenses deep. This is the type of role he's built for. If we're discussing players who could lose substantial snaps to Toney, I actually think Shepard is the one most at risk. As much as I'm a fan of his, we can move on from his contract after this year with minimal penalty and he's always hurt. Perhaps the plan is to groom Toney to be Shep's replacement. When it's all said and done, I expect KG, Shep, and Slayton to be the starters week 1, and I expect there to be a rotation of players each game. It will be Golladay Shepard and Toney. Slayton will rotate in and out to give one of those 3 a breather when needed. Or maybe on a sweep to utilize his speed. I can almost guarantee he is not getting no 60 to 90 targets to constitute a breakout season. I say he will be lucky to get 50 targets. In fact I doubt any of the WRs hit the 90 target mark.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 18:49:13 GMT -5
So is eyeball test,film,tape.. The indisputable fact again is that the past 2 super bowl winners had dynamic big play recievers all over the field that forced defenses to have to defend the entire field,which opens everything else up Shepard doesn't frighten anyone and as flawed as you say Slayton is he did have to be accounted for all year Moreno than any reciever on the team Eyeball, film, tape. Can show the outcome of a given situation of that play in that game . Analytics will show the outcome of a given situation of that play in all games. It gives the coach the tool of outcome odds to make a better decision. I agree. Those 2 teams have playmakers. Both of the #2 receivers have never been below the 60 percentile in receptions that includes their rookie seasons. Godwin had the interception machine Winston throwing to him for 3 years .FYI Shepard has never been under 61.7%. Slayton has never been out of the 50s. If he is in the 50s during preseason games against the soon to be selling insurance. That won't bode well for him Listen to yourself about Shepard .He played 4 games lass than Slayton . Had only 95 yards less than Slayton. He was on pace 900 yard in a 16 game season. Who wouldn't want that player on the field? Shepard had just as many TDs in 12 games as Slayton playing in16. Godwin had 840 on pace for 1100 Hardman had 560 But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this
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Post by McCherry on Jul 20, 2021 18:55:05 GMT -5
Shepard catches the ball when it is thrown at him. That is undisputable. He'll be on the field. If stats mean nothing. Why does every team have an analytics department ? And you are the proponent of the modern offense. Stats are a big part of it. So is eyeball test,film,tape.. The indisputable fact again is that the past 2 super bowl winners had dynamic big play recievers all over the field that forced defenses to have to defend the entire field,which opens everything else up Shepard doesn't frighten anyone and as flawed as you say Slayton is he did have to be accounted for all year Moreno than any reciever on the team To be fair, Evans was the only Bucs offensive player that was close to "dynamic". I wouldn't say Godwin frightens anyone. Solid player, with very similar ability and numbers as Shepard, only with an exponentially better QB. Brown was a very ordinary WR last year. You don't have to be dynamic to be a good slot WR. The best slot receivers are very average athletes who post modest numbers. Shepard plays a specific role nobody else here can. The Giants are trying to put together a group that compliments each other. Not replace anybody. You don't need 3 or 4 all-world receivers in your lineup.
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 19:04:20 GMT -5
Eyeball, film, tape. Can show the outcome of a given situation of that play in that game . Analytics will show the outcome of a given situation of that play in all games. It gives the coach the tool of outcome odds to make a better decision. I agree. Those 2 teams have playmakers. Both of the #2 receivers have never been below the 60 percentile in receptions that includes their rookie seasons. Godwin had the interception machine Winston throwing to him for 3 years .FYI Shepard has never been under 61.7%. Slayton has never been out of the 50s. If he is in the 50s during preseason games against the soon to be selling insurance. That won't bode well for him Listen to yourself about Shepard .He played 4 games lass than Slayton . Had only 95 yards less than Slayton. He was on pace 900 yard in a 16 game season. Who wouldn't want that player on the field? Shepard had just as many TDs in 12 games as Slayton playing in16. Godwin had 840 on pace for 1100 Hardman had 560 But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this And why would the other outside threat not be Toney .He is 6' 193 and fast. Slayton is 6'1 194 and fast Toney ran a 4.39. Slayton Ran a 4.39 . Shepard is a better slot reciever. The way I see it the rookie has more upside than the comp pick on the outside. You need to be able to run a pristine route out of the slot. Slayton has yet to prove he can do that.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 19:40:47 GMT -5
So is eyeball test,film,tape.. The indisputable fact again is that the past 2 super bowl winners had dynamic big play recievers all over the field that forced defenses to have to defend the entire field,which opens everything else up Shepard doesn't frighten anyone and as flawed as you say Slayton is he did have to be accounted for all year Moreno than any reciever on the team To be fair, Evans was the only Bucs offensive player that was close to "dynamic". I wouldn't say Godwin frightens anyone. Solid player, with very similar ability and numbers as Shepard, only with an exponentially better QB. Brown was a very ordinary WR last year. You don't have to be dynamic to be a good slot WR. The best slot receivers are very average athletes who post modest numbers. Shepard plays a specific role nobody else here can. The Giants are trying to put together a group that compliments each other. Not replace anybody. You don't need 3 or 4 all-world receivers in your lineup. Godwin is a take the top off high end complimentary piece that flourishes with a legit dynamic guy opposite him so yes in a combo with Evans they force the defense to have to defend the entire field I'd take Godwin over Shepard every time
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 19:43:22 GMT -5
But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this And why would the other outside threat not be Toney .He is 6' 193 and fast. Slayton is 6'1 194 and fast Toney ran a 4.39. Slayton Ran a 4.39 . Shepard is a better slot reciever. The way I see it the rookie has more upside than the comp pick on the outside. You need to be able to run a pristine route out of the slot. Slayton has yet to prove he can do that. Toney isn't ready to start full-time outside yet .. He would be better served in the slot for now Slayton in combination with Golladay has has the chance to be more than enough to force defenses to have to defend the entire field
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 19:43:42 GMT -5
To be fair, Evans was the only Bucs offensive player that was close to "dynamic". I wouldn't say Godwin frightens anyone. Solid player, with very similar ability and numbers as Shepard, only with an exponentially better QB. Brown was a very ordinary WR last year. You don't have to be dynamic to be a good slot WR. The best slot receivers are very average athletes who post modest numbers. Shepard plays a specific role nobody else here can. The Giants are trying to put together a group that compliments each other. Not replace anybody. You don't need 3 or 4 all-world receivers in your lineup. Godwin is a take the top off high end complimentary piece that flourishes with a legit dynamic guy opposite him so yes in a combo with Evans they force the defense to have to defend the entire field I'd take Godwin over Shepard every time Are you saying Shepard is not a good slot reciever?
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 20, 2021 19:47:41 GMT -5
I said it's not apples to apples, but we won 8 games in 2009.....splitting hairs. Slayton has also proven he is better than a backup. So, there's that. I don't want to make excuses for anyone, but Slayton is a 5th round pick who has played over his skis since getting in the league. Last year he was forced to be the #1 option on the outside, which I believe we all agree he's not. At this point, he should be the 3rd option on most teams, 2nd option at best. We now have KG manning the outside and Shep holding down the slot. Slayton can line up opposite KG, against the CB2 or CB3, and attack defenses deep. This is the type of role he's built for. If we're discussing players who could lose substantial snaps to Toney, I actually think Shepard is the one most at risk. As much as I'm a fan of his, we can move on from his contract after this year with minimal penalty and he's always hurt. Perhaps the plan is to groom Toney to be Shep's replacement. When it's all said and done, I expect KG, Shep, and Slayton to be the starters week 1, and I expect there to be a rotation of players each game. It will be Golladay Shepard and Toney. Slayton will rotate in and out to give one of those 3 a breather when needed. Or maybe on a sweep to utilize his speed. I can almost guarantee he is not getting no 60 to 90 targets to constitute a breakout season. I say he will be lucky to get 50 targets. In fact I doubt any of the WRs hit the 90 target mark. All of that is possible. I honestly don't care who starts, or who breaks out, I just want us to win and I think we will. As mentioned, the fact we have options is exciting in itself.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 20, 2021 20:02:03 GMT -5
Godwin is a take the top off high end complimentary piece that flourishes with a legit dynamic guy opposite him so yes in a combo with Evans they force the defense to have to defend the entire field I'd take Godwin over Shepard every time Are you saying Shepard is not a good slot reciever? He is good ... But he isn't starting over Slayton outside unless he regresses badly or a major injury Unless Toney looks like OBJ day one in camp he is not going to start outside.. So Slot Shepard or Toney...
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 20:04:14 GMT -5
It will be Golladay Shepard and Toney. Slayton will rotate in and out to give one of those 3 a breather when needed. Or maybe on a sweep to utilize his speed. I can almost guarantee he is not getting no 60 to 90 targets to constitute a breakout season. I say he will be lucky to get 50 targets. In fact I doubt any of the WRs hit the 90 target mark. All of that is possible. I honestly don't care who starts, or who breaks out, I just want us to win and I think we will. As mentioned, the fact we have options is exciting in itself. My entire rant on this thread is; how can this guy have a breakout season with the other 3 WRs on this team? As I said he will be lucky to 50 targets. Let say he stays around 54%. Basically his career average. That would be 27 receptions. At 60 targets (a stretch IMO) is 32 receptions. If Golladay and or Toney miss any significant time. Our win total will drop accordingly. It can't be the Barkley Shepard Engram show. These other 2 are the keys to the success of the others. I agree it is good to have a too much talent problem. I am going to stick by this. C J. Board is going to be the eye opener on this offense.
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Post by TEM on Jul 20, 2021 20:09:00 GMT -5
Are you saying Shepard is not a good slot reciever? He is good ... But he isn't starting over Slayton outside unless he regresses badly or a major injury Unless Toney looks like OBJ day one in camp he is not going to start outside.. So Slot Shepard or Toney... I think his potential is better than OBJ's He is bigger with speed. Has the on the field attitude of a bad ass . He can play RB , He can be used as a wildcat QB. He is exactly what this offense has been missing.
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Post by McCherry on Jul 20, 2021 20:44:51 GMT -5
And why would the other outside threat not be Toney .He is 6' 193 and fast. Slayton is 6'1 194 and fast Toney ran a 4.39. Slayton Ran a 4.39 . Shepard is a better slot reciever. The way I see it the rookie has more upside than the comp pick on the outside. You need to be able to run a pristine route out of the slot. Slayton has yet to prove he can do that. Toney isn't ready to start full-time outside yet ..He would be better served in the slot for now Slayton in combination with Golladay has has the chance to be more than enough to force defenses to have to defend the entire field He's definitely not ready for the slot. Playing there in the NFL is a whole different deal than at D1. Most receivers want nothing to do with getting leveled by 250 LB's for a 5-yard gain. As much as I like Toney, Shep is one of the best slot players in the league. They're not taking him off the field for an unproven rookie whose talents can be exploited elsewhere. I don't think it’s going be that complicated. They have 4 good receivers who can all do different things. This is not going to be a problem.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 20, 2021 20:54:03 GMT -5
Toney isn't ready to start full-time outside yet ..He would be better served in the slot for now Slayton in combination with Golladay has has the chance to be more than enough to force defenses to have to defend the entire field I don't think it’s going be that complicated. They have 4 good receivers who can all do different things. This is not going to be a problem. you are right.....its not complicated. They will all get a clean slate and which ever receiver performs best at what they want thats who will get the most reps. There is a currently a pecking order but that is fluid and may change as the season wears on.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 21, 2021 5:23:02 GMT -5
I will say it again .If Toney is not at least the #3 reciever on the team game 1. The entire FO and JJ totally pooched the first round. It is a simple calculus. A 6 and 10 team lacks the talent to compete. Not adding a week one player with a first round pick does not fall in line with a coaching staff or FO that is fully committed to winning. We had a limited draft. 5 picks . If our first 2 picks are not in the 75 80 percentile in offensive and defensive snap counts We did not inject talent in this draft. This is where logic falls apart with you Slayton guys . I think I can speak for everyone on this site when I say this. It is expected our 2nd round Azeez Ojulari to be one of our OLBs when we take the field against Denver. It makes sense because our pass rush from the edge has been below average. So it is logical to see we needed an upgrade. So where is the same attitude that we need upgrade with 2 of our top 3 receivers. In 2019 Jones and Eli and Jones had a 61.9 completion percentage. 18 diffrent players were targeted with passes. Slayton was 15th on that list in catch percentage 57.1 He only had 2 drops out of 84 targets. In 2020 Jones had a 62.5 and Colt had a 60.6 completion percentage . 15 different players were targeted with passes. Slayton was 14th on that list. 52.1 catch percentage. He only had 6 drops out of 95 targets. So why would you not want a to upgrade that reciever? You can say it as many times as you want. There is nothing wrong with your thoughts, I just think there is another way it will happen. I'm sure we can both agree that not everyone see's things exactly the same. There is a large amount of people that see Toney as a versatile weapon. That is how I see him. I think he can line up and play the same spot as Slayton but I also think that is not the way to maximize the talent on this team. Golladay is your perfect Z WR. Shep is your perfect slot WR. That leaves Slayton and Toney. If they stick Toney in the X WR role that leaves Slayton with nothing to do but sit. If they stick Slayton at the X WR role they can still line Toney up anywhere they want. This is the way I think they will use him. At least to start, in order to maximize him his rookie year.
No that does not mean they failed in the draft. That means they have more imagination that just lining Toney up on the outside like its the mid 90s. I'm not trying to change your thought process, just trying to show you another way to look at it. I know you don't like Slayton but what is he best at? At 15+ yards per catch on his career he is a deep threat. Any coach worth his salt will try to maximize each player.
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 8:38:43 GMT -5
All of that is possible. I honestly don't care who starts, or who breaks out, I just want us to win and I think we will. As mentioned, the fact we have options is exciting in itself. My entire rant on this thread is; how can this guy have a breakout season with the other 3 WRs on this team? As I said he will be lucky to 50 targets. Let say he stays around 54%. Basically his career average. That would be 27 receptions. At 60 targets (a stretch IMO) is 32 receptions. If Golladay and or Toney miss any significant time. Our win total will drop accordingly. It can't be the Barkley Shepard Engram show. These other 2 are the keys to the success of the others. I agree it is good to have a too much talent problem. I am going to stick by this. C J. Board is going to be the eye opener on this offense. If your logic for Slayton not having an eye popping year is sound, which I think it is, then Board having an eye popping year is even less likely. Unless something changes, he's further down the totem pole than Slayton. Again, I don't care who pops, but the stats you continue to throw out are flawed. As are most stats and analytics due to the fact football isn't played in a vacuum. For one, and I'll continue to say it, Slayton has played out of position since he's gotten in the league. He's not a WR1. Not every WR can fill the WR1 role on the outside, and that's fine. A WR3 playing WR1 should expect to "struggle," and a move back to a more natural position should only help. I don't believe analytics take situations like this into consideration. I then consider the fact Slayton is going into his 3rd year, but only his 2nd playing in the same system. He's played with a rookie QB, and a 2nd year QB who had to learn a 2nd system without a proper off-season. A full off-season this year will help the entire team, not just Slayton, as will the overall continuity in systems. I can't imagine analytics take factors like these into consideration. I can go on and on. Analytics can make for very interesting conversation, but in my opinion that's all they're good for. There are simply too many outside factors that go into a successful run, or a completed pass, for most of these player stats to matter.
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 8:46:17 GMT -5
Eyeball, film, tape. Can show the outcome of a given situation of that play in that game . Analytics will show the outcome of a given situation of that play in all games. It gives the coach the tool of outcome odds to make a better decision. I agree. Those 2 teams have playmakers. Both of the #2 receivers have never been below the 60 percentile in receptions that includes their rookie seasons. Godwin had the interception machine Winston throwing to him for 3 years .FYI Shepard has never been under 61.7%. Slayton has never been out of the 50s. If he is in the 50s during preseason games against the soon to be selling insurance. That won't bode well for him Listen to yourself about Shepard .He played 4 games lass than Slayton . Had only 95 yards less than Slayton. He was on pace 900 yard in a 16 game season. Who wouldn't want that player on the field? Shepard had just as many TDs in 12 games as Slayton playing in16. Godwin had 840 on pace for 1100 Hardman had 560 But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 21, 2021 10:00:36 GMT -5
But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive. The fact that people want to start Shepard outside over Slayton just because of some numbers aligning ..... Shepard gets replaced eventually by a nore dynamic explosive version of him eventually in Toney
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 10:13:29 GMT -5
Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive. The fact that people want to start Shepard outside over Slayton just because of some numbers aligning ..... Shepard gets replaced eventually by a nore dynamic explosive version of him eventually in Toney I tend to agree, and I'm a big Shep fan. He was actually on my big board back in the day and my Rd2 hope, so the couch GM in me has a soft spot for him. Whether we let Shep go after this year, or let him play his contract out, I see Toney being his eventual replacement. Here's an article on Toney I found this morning. The projections/expectations are pretty spot on in my opinion: www.si.com/nfl/giants/big-blue-plus/new-york-giants-training-camp-preview-wr-kadarius-toney
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 11:18:57 GMT -5
Eyeball, film, tape. Can show the outcome of a given situation of that play in that game . Analytics will show the outcome of a given situation of that play in all games. It gives the coach the tool of outcome odds to make a better decision. I agree. Those 2 teams have playmakers. Both of the #2 receivers have never been below the 60 percentile in receptions that includes their rookie seasons. Godwin had the interception machine Winston throwing to him for 3 years .FYI Shepard has never been under 61.7%. Slayton has never been out of the 50s. If he is in the 50s during preseason games against the soon to be selling insurance. That won't bode well for him Listen to yourself about Shepard .He played 4 games lass than Slayton . Had only 95 yards less than Slayton. He was on pace 900 yard in a 16 game season. Who wouldn't want that player on the field? Shepard had just as many TDs in 12 games as Slayton playing in16. Godwin had 840 on pace for 1100 Hardman had 560 But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this Are you claiming that Slayton does fit this "play maker" role??
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 21, 2021 11:33:55 GMT -5
But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this Are you claiming that Slayton does fit this "play maker" role?? More so than Shepard (we know what he is by now...Slayton's story isn't finished here yet as it's year 3) Shepard doesn't scare anyone outside.. Slayton already has a history of going over the top for TDs..even if a bit eratic
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