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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 11:58:23 GMT -5
Are you claiming that Slayton does fit this "play maker" role?? More so than Shepard (we know what he is by now...Slayton's story isn't finished here yet as it's year 3) Shepard doesn't scare anyone outside.. Slayton already has a history of going over the top for TDs..even if a bit eratic Thanks for the response but we will have to disagree on this one. Erratic is a big issue especially when it comes to catching..
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 21, 2021 12:11:00 GMT -5
More so than Shepard (we know what he is by now...Slayton's story isn't finished here yet as it's year 3) Shepard doesn't scare anyone outside.. Slayton already has a history of going over the top for TDs..even if a bit eratic Thanks for the response but we will have to disagree on this one. Erratic is a big issue especially when it comes to catching.. And not frightening an opposing defenses outside to force them to defend the entire field is a bigger issue which is what happened when Shepard started outside..it was more like point and laugh,play up and squeeze all tbe short area
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Post by McCherry on Jul 21, 2021 12:19:24 GMT -5
Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive. The fact that people want to start Shepard outside over Slayton just because of some numbers aligning ..... Shepard gets replaced eventually by a nore dynamic explosive version of him eventually in Toney Do they? This should not be a consideration since we've finally acquired real outside talent. Golloday/Slayton on the outside with Shep in the slot is potentially more than most defenses could handle. That's before we even discuss TE, 4th WR and the running game.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 12:22:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the response but we will have to disagree on this one. Erratic is a big issue especially when it comes to catching.. And not frightening an opposing defenses outside to force them to defend the entire field is a bigger issue which is what happened when Shepard started outside..it was more like point and laugh,play up and squeeze all tbe short area Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now..
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Post by Fletch842 on Jul 21, 2021 12:43:52 GMT -5
But it still doesn't change the absolute fact that you need at least 2 top big play playmakers on the field or more at the same time to have a modern dynamic offense and Shepard does not do this Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive. and if Saquon comes back healthy it just adds one more player for the defense to focus on.
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 13:31:43 GMT -5
Similar to my thoughts on Slayton, I think Shep has been asked to play out of position in recent years due to injuries around him. In my opinion, Shep is so completely underrated by most fans because, as you say, he's not the deep threat on the outside. He's an ideal slot WR, who can get open off the line, has phone booth quickness and precise route running, and catches damn near everything in traffic. KG and Slayton on the outside, with Shep/Toney in the slot, and EE/Rudolph as the TE is a beautiful thing on paper. Sprinkle in some Pettis, Board, and Ross here and there, and things could get scary for defenses. The depth of players we can rotate in is impressive. and if Saquon comes back healthy it just adds one more player for the defense to focus on. Exactly. I was focusing on the WRs and TEs, but if Barkley can remain healthy forget about it.
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 21, 2021 13:35:09 GMT -5
And not frightening an opposing defenses outside to force them to defend the entire field is a bigger issue which is what happened when Shepard started outside..it was more like point and laugh,play up and squeeze all tbe short area Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now.. , So you have already decided Slayton will never take the next step Agree to strongly disagree as we now get to see him not have to be a number one and just be the other guy that is a deep threat that now isn't going to be gamelanned against
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2021 13:42:30 GMT -5
Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now.. , So you have already decided Slayton will never take the next step Agree to strongly disagree as we now get to see him not have to be a number one and just be the other guy that is a deep threat that now isn't going to be gamelanned against Come on even you claim his ceiling is a number 2 at best and now he's part of your master plan of having play makers all over the field.. Consistency isn't your friend here the same with Slayton's catching or separation abilities..
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Post by giantlegacy on Jul 21, 2021 14:02:38 GMT -5
, So you have already decided Slayton will never take the next step Agree to strongly disagree as we now get to see him not have to be a number one and just be the other guy that is a deep threat that now isn't going to be gamelanned against Come on even you claim his ceiling is a number 2 at best and now he's part of your master plan of having play makers all over the field.. Consistency isn't your friend here the same with Slayton's catching or separation abilities.. A high end number 2 opposite a legit number 1 is indeed just this...(which we have now with Golladay) If he indeed takes the next step and reaches his 65-70 catch 1000 yard ceiling or something close it indeed is having playmakers all over the field.. He is a Michael Gallup/Godwin type IMO teams will have no choice but to play a 2 deep.zone if /when this happens...
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Post by McCherry on Jul 21, 2021 14:11:59 GMT -5
Come on even you claim his ceiling is a number 2 at best and now he's part of your master plan of having play makers all over the field.. Consistency isn't your friend here the same with Slayton's catching or separation abilities.. A high end number 2 opposite a legit number 1 is indeed just this...(which we have now with Golladay) If he indeed takes the next step and reaches his 65-70 catch 1000 yard ceiling or something close it indeed is having playmakers all over the field.. He is a Michael Gallup/Godwin type IMO teams will have no choice but to play a 2 deep.zone if /when this happens... Agreed. You don't have to be a #1 to be an effective playmaker. Manningham was neither a 1 or 2 but no one would say he wasn't an effective playmaker in his time.
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 14:15:11 GMT -5
Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now.. , So you have already decided Slayton will never take the next step Agree to strongly disagree as we now get to see him not have to be a number one and just be the other guy that is a deep threat that now isn't going to be gamelanned against I feel like this is continuing to be overlooked. The production, or lack thereof depending on your point of view, has come when Slayton played out of position. He's now going to play the position he's best suited to fit. Slayton has already proven he can take the top off a defense. With defenses now having to focus their attention elsewhere, I expect Slayton to be more consistent.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 21, 2021 16:12:22 GMT -5
And not frightening an opposing defenses outside to force them to defend the entire field is a bigger issue which is what happened when Shepard started outside..it was more like point and laugh,play up and squeeze all tbe short area Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now.. We know what both Slayton and Shep are. The problem is we were forced to make them do things last year they are not best suited for. Shep in the slot is a fantastic WR. Short area quickness and very good hands and precise route running. Slayton not lined up as the WR1 (like he was forced to do last year) will be much better. He has 750 yards and 15+ yards per catch each of his first two years. That's what he is. He will threaten deep.
It's the addition of Golladay as a true WR1 that makes this entire thing work though. He allows the other players to play to their strength. Add in Toney as a line up everywhere and make a play type WR and we can actually start putting pressure on the other team for once.
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Post by piddy283 on Jul 21, 2021 16:29:13 GMT -5
Oh yeah that comment of "force them to defend the entire field" with something we haven't seen happen with either player but it does sound promising and hopefully the other players will cause this to happen.. Slayton or Sheppard have no chance as we've witnessed for a few years now.. We know what both Slayton and Shep are. The problem is we were forced to make them do things last year they are not best suited for. Shep in the slot is a fantastic WR. Short area quickness and very good hands and precise route running. Slayton not lined up as the WR1 (like he was forced to do last year) will be much better. He has 750 yards and 15+ yards per catch each of his first two years. That's what he is. He will threaten deep.
It's the addition of Golladay as a true WR1 that makes this entire thing work though. He allows the other players to play to their strength. Add in Toney as a line up everywhere and make a play type WR and we can actually start putting pressure on the other team for once.
Hammer meet nail.
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Post by TEM on Jul 21, 2021 16:30:22 GMT -5
I will say it again .If Toney is not at least the #3 reciever on the team game 1. The entire FO and JJ totally pooched the first round. It is a simple calculus. A 6 and 10 team lacks the talent to compete. Not adding a week one player with a first round pick does not fall in line with a coaching staff or FO that is fully committed to winning. We had a limited draft. 5 picks . If our first 2 picks are not in the 75 80 percentile in offensive and defensive snap counts We did not inject talent in this draft. This is where logic falls apart with you Slayton guys . I think I can speak for everyone on this site when I say this. It is expected our 2nd round Azeez Ojulari to be one of our OLBs when we take the field against Denver. It makes sense because our pass rush from the edge has been below average. So it is logical to see we needed an upgrade. So where is the same attitude that we need upgrade with 2 of our top 3 receivers. In 2019 Jones and Eli and Jones had a 61.9 completion percentage. 18 diffrent players were targeted with passes. Slayton was 15th on that list in catch percentage 57.1 He only had 2 drops out of 84 targets. In 2020 Jones had a 62.5 and Colt had a 60.6 completion percentage . 15 different players were targeted with passes. Slayton was 14th on that list. 52.1 catch percentage. He only had 6 drops out of 95 targets. So why would you not want a to upgrade that reciever? You can say it as many times as you want. There is nothing wrong with your thoughts, I just think there is another way it will happen. I'm sure we can both agree that not everyone see's things exactly the same. There is a large amount of people that see Toney as a versatile weapon. That is how I see him. I think he can line up and play the same spot as Slayton but I also think that is not the way to maximize the talent on this team. Golladay is your perfect Z WR. Shep is your perfect slot WR. That leaves Slayton and Toney. If they stick Toney in the X WR role that leaves Slayton with nothing to do but sit. If they stick Slayton at the X WR role they can still line Toney up anywhere they want. This is the way I think they will use him. At least to start, in order to maximize him his rookie year.
No that does not mean they failed in the draft. That means they have more imagination that just lining Toney up on the outside like its the mid 90s. I'm not trying to change your thought process, just trying to show you another way to look at it. I know you don't like Slayton but what is he best at? At 15+ yards per catch on his career he is a deep threat. Any coach worth his salt will try to maximize each player.
Mike I as we all are an sick of losing .Having an immediate impact player drafted in the first round should be a main ingredient in that recipe. That is the way I see it.
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Post by TEM on Jul 21, 2021 16:33:56 GMT -5
My entire rant on this thread is; how can this guy have a breakout season with the other 3 WRs on this team? As I said he will be lucky to 50 targets. Let say he stays around 54%. Basically his career average. That would be 27 receptions. At 60 targets (a stretch IMO) is 32 receptions. If Golladay and or Toney miss any significant time. Our win total will drop accordingly. It can't be the Barkley Shepard Engram show. These other 2 are the keys to the success of the others. I agree it is good to have a too much talent problem. I am going to stick by this. C J. Board is going to be the eye opener on this offense. If your logic for Slayton not having an eye popping year is sound, which I think it is, then Board having an eye popping year is even less likely. Unless something changes, he's further down the totem pole than Slayton. Again, I don't care who pops, but the stats you continue to throw out are flawed. As are most stats and analytics due to the fact football isn't played in a vacuum. For one, and I'll continue to say it, Slayton has played out of position since he's gotten in the league. He's not a WR1. Not every WR can fill the WR1 role on the outside, and that's fine. A WR3 playing WR1 should expect to "struggle," and a move back to a more natural position should only help. I don't believe analytics take situations like this into consideration. I then consider the fact Slayton is going into his 3rd year, but only his 2nd playing in the same system. He's played with a rookie QB, and a 2nd year QB who had to learn a 2nd system without a proper off-season. A full off-season this year will help the entire team, not just Slayton, as will the overall continuity in systems. I can't imagine analytics take factors like these into consideration. I can go on and on. Analytics can make for very interesting conversation, but in my opinion that's all they're good for. There are simply too many outside factors that go into a successful run, or a completed pass, for most of these player stats to matter. That does not change the fact he was on the bottom in reception precentage on a team with average and practice squad receivers in both his years. I hope he proves me wrong and he's into the 60s in reception precentage.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 21, 2021 16:36:42 GMT -5
Mike I as we all are an sick of losing .Having an immediate impact player drafted in the first round should be a main ingredient in that recipe. That is the way I see it. The thing with Toney is he has only played 1 season as a WR. I think he is super talented but with that lack of experience they need to put him in the best position to succeed. I'm not a pro scout but I think his strengths are his short area quickness and his ability to run plays from everywhere. I think it's a diservice to him if they simply line him up on the outside. They should move him around, line him up all over, especially in the slot where he can use his quickness to win option routes and the use him joystick moves to take 5 yard passes 20 yards.
I do think Toney will get reps and will be a main ingredient, just not simply lined up outside like Slayton. He has too much value moving all over the formation finding those mismatches.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 21, 2021 17:17:40 GMT -5
Last year was last year.... for Slayton, Golladay, Shep Engram, Rudolph etc. This is a new season with a a new scheme and new hope.
Toney has never played a down in the NFL but was drafted to be an immediate impact player. ALL the WRs will be involved. The amount of reps will depend on what is working, what they would like to do in a given game, which receivers are getting the job done. Jones of course is the a key factor with the receivers as well. Who will he build a strong chemistry with? Time will tell. Its not like Judge and Garrett are forming game plans saying "Well KG is getting the most money so lets throw to him most of the time. Slayton only caught the ball 5x% of the time so lets only involve him a little bit. Toney HAS to be impact from day one or we will look like idiots". Thats not the way it really works.
In a perfect world Gollladay will play all 17 games and have a great season. The rest will fill in in big rolls and Toney will emerge as the threat they all hoped for. Nothing is given. The games have to be played and the roster is ALWAYS fluid.
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Post by IrishMike on Jul 21, 2021 17:20:27 GMT -5
Last year was last year.... for Slayton, Golladay, Shep Engram, Rudolph etc. This is a new season with a a new scheme and new hope. Toney has never played a down in the NFL but was drafted to be an immediate impact player. ALL the WRs will be involved. The amount of reps will depend on what is working, what they would like to do in a given game, which receivers are getting the job done. Jones of course is the a key factor with the receivers as well. Who will he build a strong chemistry with? Time will tell. Its not like Judge and Garrett are forming game plans saying "Well KG is getting the most money so lets throw to him most of the time. Slayton only caught the ball 5x% of the time so lets only involve him a little bit. Toney HAS to be impact from day one or we will look like idiots". Thats not the way it really works. In a perfect world Gollladay will play all 17 games and have a great season. The rest will fill in in big rolls and Toney will emerge as the threat they all hoped for. Nothing is given. The games have to be played and the roster is ALWAYS fluid. If our top 4 WRs play all 17 games I will be happy as can be.
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Post by GameTime on Jul 21, 2021 17:45:07 GMT -5
Last year was last year.... for Slayton, Golladay, Shep Engram, Rudolph etc. This is a new season with a a new scheme and new hope. Toney has never played a down in the NFL but was drafted to be an immediate impact player. ALL the WRs will be involved. The amount of reps will depend on what is working, what they would like to in a given game, which receivers are getting the job done. Jones of course is the a key factor with the receivers as well. Who will he build a strong chemistry with? Time will tell. Its not like Judge and Garrett are forming game plans saying "Well KG is getting tho most money so lets throw to him most of the time. Slayton only caught the ball 5x% of the time so lets only involve him a little bit. Toney HAS to be impact from day one or we will look like idiots". Thats not the way it really works. In a perfect world Gollladay will play all 17 games and have a great season. The rest will fill in in big rolls and Toney will emerge as the threat they all hoped for. Nothing is given. The games have to be played and the roster is ALWAYS fluid. If our top 4 WRs play all 17 games I will be happy as can be. health is a major factor for every team. So much luck is involved.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2021 6:05:43 GMT -5
Come on even you claim his ceiling is a number 2 at best and now he's part of your master plan of having play makers all over the field.. Consistency isn't your friend here the same with Slayton's catching or separation abilities.. A high end number 2 opposite a legit number 1 is indeed just this...(which we have now with Golladay) If he indeed takes the next step and reaches his 65-70 catch 1000 yard ceiling or something close it indeed is having playmakers all over the field.. He is a Michael Gallup/Godwin type IMO teams will have no choice but to play a 2 deep.zone if /when this happens... However this turns out I really hope they can score a lot more points then we've been subjected too these past bunch of years!!
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