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Post by SG88 on Jul 19, 2021 23:27:57 GMT -5
I agree that they didn't do any favors for him. I am sure that he felt scapegoated when he was pretty much the only person shown the door at the time. I still think that the Giants should have totally cleaned house when they let him go. IMO that is why he left Mara hanging at that presser. I would have left him hanging too if I were Tom. We remember "Teflon Ton" G. It was never his fault. It was always someone else's. Yeah, I certainly remember that. IMO, he stayed at least two years too long. In 2014 I wanted our franchise to adopt some fresh ideas and adapt to the times. It just seemed like the team and franchise were still stuck in SB 46 when the rest of the league moved on. I was also pissed at TC for how he handled Hakeem Nicks' injury. He basically publicly pressured him to play while he was hurt, which cut Hakeem's career short by several years IMO. Tom as a topic on the old boards was a very confrontational one and some fans would want to fight when you had the audacity to criticize him.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 20, 2021 7:33:51 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC.
He’s in the running for the HOF.
But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 20, 2021 8:44:32 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC. He’s in the running for the HOF. But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game. That's pretty accurate.
from my point of view, I hated the way he handled Hakeem Nicks. Nicks played his ass off, including playing hurt and Tom shames him into taking the field when he shouldn't have....and then publicly criticizes him.
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Post by Delicreep on Jul 20, 2021 11:40:51 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC. He’s in the running for the HOF.But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game. I'm thinking that he's going to get in at some point.
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Post by Kruunch on Jul 20, 2021 15:02:39 GMT -5
Agreed. Tom fell on the sword when it was clear the teams ineptness was in part to our GM. To add insult to injury, the following season after Coughlins “resignation” the Giants went on a spending spree. To the tune of $200 million dollars. When in fact, years prior the Giants had to sign free agents with loose change they found in between the couch cushions. Tom didn't "fall on his sword." He showed everyone how he felt when he dissed John Mara in that final presser. I get kids these days might not like his type, but they actually need his type. Just MO. He fired Kevin Gilbride when it was obvious that it was a decision that came from up top. He took a lot of the blame for the teams lack of success. He was the biggest domino that fell from our championship teams. He’s the kind of head coach that will get everything out of you. He’s going to push you when you don’t want to be pushed. He’s going to ride you when you think you’ve had enough. His breed doesn’t work with the modern athlete. They want to be coddled, and appreciated at all times. If not, they throw a hissy fit and voice their displeasure on social media.
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Post by Kruunch on Jul 20, 2021 15:05:25 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC. He’s in the running for the HOF.But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game. I'm thinking that he's going to get in at some point. Absolutely. And soon. Tom Flores waited 27 years to get in. And he’s not half the head coach Coughlin is.
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Post by SG88 on Jul 20, 2021 15:18:05 GMT -5
Tom didn't "fall on his sword." He showed everyone how he felt when he dissed John Mara in that final presser. I get kids these days might not like his type, but they actually need his type. Just MO. He fired Kevin Gilbride when it was obvious that it was a decision that came from up top. He took a lot of the blame for the teams lack of success. He was the biggest domino that fell from our championship teams. He’s the kind of head coach that will get everything out of you. He’s going to push you when you don’t want to be pushed. He’s going to ride you when you think you’ve had enough. His breed doesn’t work with the modern athlete. They want to be coddled, and appreciated at all times. If not, they throw a hissy fit and voice their displeasure on social media. Bill Belichick doesn't coddle or kiss the ass of any player or coach. Players and assistant coaches aren't complaining about him on social media. He has been known as a similar disciplinarian and an obvious Parcells disciple. Tom himself just became dated and refused to get with the times. I think that a hard-nosed coach can work in today's game. Results are and should be the only things that matter. When that kind of team wins, he is getting the most out of the players. When that kind of team loses, he is too much of a hard ass. At least that is the public perception of that kind of coach.
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Post by SG88 on Jul 20, 2021 15:21:32 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC. He’s in the running for the HOF.But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game. I'm thinking that he's going to get in at some point. Yeah, I do think that Tom will get in there one day. Hopefully sooner than later. He has a nice overall resume that does stack up against other coaches already in.
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Post by Kruunch on Jul 20, 2021 15:22:13 GMT -5
He fired Kevin Gilbride when it was obvious that it was a decision that came from up top. He took a lot of the blame for the teams lack of success. He was the biggest domino that fell from our championship teams. He’s the kind of head coach that will get everything out of you. He’s going to push you when you don’t want to be pushed. He’s going to ride you when you think you’ve had enough. His breed doesn’t work with the modern athlete. They want to be coddled, and appreciated at all times. If not, they throw a hissy fit and voice their displeasure on social media. Bill Belichick doesn't coddle or kiss the ass of any player or coach. Players and assistant coaches aren't complaining about him on social media. He has been known as a similar disciplinarian and an obvious Parcells disciple. Tom himself just became dated and refused to get with the times. I think that a hard-nosed coach can work in today's game. Results are and should be the only things that matter. When that kind of team wins, he is getting the most out of the players. When that kind of team loses, he is too much of a hard ass. At least that is the public perception of that kind of coach. He has 6 rings. 8 total. He could tell a player he sucks, and that player would tell all his friends that Belichick knows his name. He’s the exception, the average coach has to be a mentor, a friend, and some, a father figure. The days of riding these players till they say uncle, are long gone.
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jul 21, 2021 8:54:50 GMT -5
That decision seems to have worked out well for Jacksonville... Tom got fired because he consistently violated the CBA. He thought the CBA only applied to the other 31 teams and not the Jags.
I read enough to know that I don’t give a damn about multimillionaires who feel mistreated because they have to wear white socks. Such a wonderful representation of this generation when youth try to imagine forms of oppression. GTFO.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 9:44:28 GMT -5
Tom got fired because he consistently violated the CBA. He thought the CBA only applied to the other 31 teams and not the Jags.
I read enough to know that I don’t give a damn about multimillionaires who feel mistreated because they have to wear white socks. Such a wonderful representation of this generation when youth try to imagine forms of oppression. GTFO. It has nothing to do with socks. It had to do with being able to use your own doctors and trainers after you get hurt during your rehab.
The CBA was negotiated. It's the law.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 21, 2021 11:10:33 GMT -5
Overall his career was a very productive one. Taking an expansion team to an AFC Championship Game in a very short time, winning two SBs as a HC vs Brady and Belichick, being on staff as a WR coach for another, coaching a good program at BC. He’s in the running for the HOF. But the flip side is with the Giants it is the same as Eli’s. Two miracle years and essentially that’s it for his entire tenure as their HC. He did not win a playoff game in any year other than the 2 SB years while with the Giants. So in 10 years of the 12 he coached the Giants did not win a single playoff game. That's pretty accurate.
from my point of view, I hated the way he handled Hakeem Nicks. Nicks played his ass off, including playing hurt and Tom shames him into taking the field when he shouldn't have....and then publicly criticizes him.
I agree on Nicks and also don't think TC did OBJ any favors during training camp with the hammy or during the Josh Norman incident. He let an out of control player get to full melt down mode without intervening.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 11:15:30 GMT -5
That's pretty accurate.
from my point of view, I hated the way he handled Hakeem Nicks. Nicks played his ass off, including playing hurt and Tom shames him into taking the field when he shouldn't have....and then publicly criticizes him.
I agree on Nicks and also don't think TC did OBJ any favors during training camp with the hammy or during the Josh Norman incident. He let an out of control player get to full melt down mode without intervening. That was Tom at his worst.
he called out Odell (this when he was a likeable rookie) for missing practice due to injury. Odell then had to answer questions about it the next day and insisted he was doing everything he could to get back. Stepped back on the field the next day due to the pressure, and immediately aggravated the hammy the first practice and missed the first 4 weeks of the season.
This really was when Tom was declining as a HC. He screwed up Nicks, then trashed him, and then shamed Odell into coming back in 2014 only to have him miss games he didn't have to miss.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 21, 2021 11:55:33 GMT -5
I agree on Nicks and also don't think TC did OBJ any favors during training camp with the hammy or during the Josh Norman incident. He let an out of control player get to full melt down mode without intervening. That was Tom at his worst.
he called out Odell (this when he was a likeable rookie) for missing practice due to injury. Odell then had to answer questions about it the next day and insisted he was doing everything he could to get back. Stepped back on the field the next day due to the pressure, and immediately aggravated the hammy the first practice and missed the first 4 weeks of the season.
This really was when Tom was declining as a HC. He screwed up Nicks, then trashed him, and then shamed Odell into coming back in 2014 only to have him miss games he didn't have to miss.
Agreed. It's one thing to push players to get effort, it's another to push players that are hurt to play thru it when they can further injure themselves. It seems like Coughlin had a blindspot for that. But overall he got players to succeed.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 13:11:13 GMT -5
That was Tom at his worst.
he called out Odell (this when he was a likeable rookie) for missing practice due to injury. Odell then had to answer questions about it the next day and insisted he was doing everything he could to get back. Stepped back on the field the next day due to the pressure, and immediately aggravated the hammy the first practice and missed the first 4 weeks of the season.
This really was when Tom was declining as a HC. He screwed up Nicks, then trashed him, and then shamed Odell into coming back in 2014 only to have him miss games he didn't have to miss.
Agreed. It's one thing to push players to get effort, it's another to push players that are hurt to play thru it when they can further injure themselves. It seems like Coughlin had a blindspot for that. But overall he got players to succeed. He was an outstanding coach and deserves great credit for 2 SB wins. But once the team started to falter, I think he pretty much lost it. It happened in Jax before he came to NY.
Tom definitely has a shelf life with any team.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 21, 2021 13:35:03 GMT -5
Agreed. It's one thing to push players to get effort, it's another to push players that are hurt to play thru it when they can further injure themselves. It seems like Coughlin had a blindspot for that. But overall he got players to succeed. He was an outstanding coach and deserves great credit for 2 SB wins. But once the team started to falter, I think he pretty much lost it. It happened in Jax before he came to NY.
Tom definitely has a shelf life with any team.
A lot of real good coaches have shelf lives. Tortorella comes to mind. That's why in this day and age, Belichick is so unbelievable.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 14:47:37 GMT -5
He was an outstanding coach and deserves great credit for 2 SB wins. But once the team started to falter, I think he pretty much lost it. It happened in Jax before he came to NY.
Tom definitely has a shelf life with any team.
A lot of real good coaches have shelf lives. Tortorella comes to mind. That's why in this day and age, Belichick is so unbelievable. So I can see that the Jax players came to dislike Tom. He had no respect for the CBA, or even intention of following it. And he wasn't even a coach at the time.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 21, 2021 15:03:59 GMT -5
A lot of real good coaches have shelf lives. Tortorella comes to mind. That's why in this day and age, Belichick is so unbelievable. So I can see that the Jax players came to dislike Tom. He had no respect for the CBA, or even intention of following it. And he wasn't even a coach at the time. Belichick is perhaps the greatest rule violator. I wonder how many NFL coaches violate the CBA. Does anyone know? It should be out there somewhere. I am not looking to give TC cover. He shouldn't do it. I am just wondering if he's playing the same game as his peers. ++++++ Hold your searches, I did some research. On just the first google page on JUST recent violations I found the Ravens, Jaguars (under Meyer), 49ers and Cowboys fined in the past couple of months. It appears to be somewhat pervasive.
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Post by snyder55 on Jul 21, 2021 15:14:39 GMT -5
I never did get why Matt Dodge got so much flak for that D Jax game. He wasn't on the offense that became complacent with a 31-10 lead and he certainly wasn't on the defense that allowed 28 points in the 4th quarter. But yeah, let's blame a punter and send him death threats. Tom certainly didn't help matters by publicly humiliating Matt Dodge after that punt.
Yeah, chewing out the rookie punter after a total team collapse was not one of Tom's finest moments and I'm sure he'd agree.
yeah that was a classic example of when things are at their worst is when you should be at your best but Tom did have a temper ...
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Post by Jomo on Jul 21, 2021 15:19:20 GMT -5
I can't lie, I disliked Tiki ratting out his HC on CBA violations but that doesn't make TC right for what he did.
I guess Tiki's actions violated my sense of how a team should work (ie protect one another)
On the other hand, TC didn't uphold his end of the "team bargain" either. The CBA is there to protect players and shouldn't be dismissed by anyone.
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Post by snyder55 on Jul 21, 2021 15:24:08 GMT -5
That's fair. I don't think any HC is perfect. But I do think TC was failed by the organization. We can agree to disagree on it. I agree that they didn't do any favors for him. I am sure that he felt scapegoated when he was pretty much the only person shown the door at the time. I still think that the Giants should have totally cleaned house when they let him go. IMO that is why he left Mara hanging at that presser. I would have left him hanging too if I were Tom. I was proud of TC for dissing Mara because Mara deserved it for having Pinocchio balls...
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 15:28:40 GMT -5
So I can see that the Jax players came to dislike Tom. He had no respect for the CBA, or even intention of following it. And he wasn't even a coach at the time. Belichick is perhaps the greatest rule violator. I wonder how many NFL coaches violate the CBA. Does anyone know? It should be out there somewhere. I am not looking to give TC cover. He shouldn't do it. I am just wondering if he's playing the same game as his peers. ++++++ Hold your searches, I did some research. On just the first google page on JUST recent violations I found the Ravens, Jaguars (under Meyer), 49ers and Cowboys fined in the past couple of months. It appears to be somewhat pervasive. Tom got fired because he was costing the team a fortune in fines.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 21, 2021 15:32:16 GMT -5
Belichick is perhaps the greatest rule violator. I wonder how many NFL coaches violate the CBA. Does anyone know? It should be out there somewhere. I am not looking to give TC cover. He shouldn't do it. I am just wondering if he's playing the same game as his peers. ++++++ Hold your searches, I did some research. On just the first google page on JUST recent violations I found the Ravens, Jaguars (under Meyer), 49ers and Cowboys fined in the past couple of months. It appears to be somewhat pervasive. Tom got fired because he was costing the team a fortune in fines. I think the writing was on the wall that Coughlin would get fired when Beckham had that meltdown vs Carolina and Coughlin did nothing to reign him in and even denied realizing that some of it was happening.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 15:34:09 GMT -5
Tom got fired because he was costing the team a fortune in fines. I think the writing was on the wall that Coughlin would get fired when Beckham had that meltdown vs Carolina and Coughlin did nothing to reign him in and even denied realizing that some of it was happening. I was talking about Jax.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 15:37:57 GMT -5
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Post by Jomo on Jul 21, 2021 15:43:16 GMT -5
Tom got fired because he was costing the team a fortune in fines. I think the writing was on the wall that Coughlin would get fired when Beckham had that meltdown vs Carolina and Coughlin did nothing to reign him in and even denied realizing that some of it was happening. I forgot that last part of it Roswell. Yes, he denied knowing that some of it was happening. I liked TC as a coach, not the GOAT but good enough to win 2 SBs. I like him as a person. He passes my fine neighbor test. That doesn't make him perfect but that Beckham incident told me that he was crumbling under the pressure in taking chances (leaving Beckham in there to melt down) that a confident HC does not make. The TC I knew would have pulled Beckham out, chewed him out and told him that his antics were going to hurt, not help the team. That probably sealed his fate, and should have.
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Post by Jomo on Jul 21, 2021 15:49:07 GMT -5
Does that make him the winner?? All kidding aside, (without making excuses) it could reflect a cranky roster with multiple players reporting the same violation in a mob mentality. It doesn't say that the Jags were responsible for 25% of the CBA violations, it says that 25% of the complaints came from Jag players. Again not making any excuses. CBA violations are not rare and not in the sole purview of TC. The venerable BB is the master of rules violation and cheating.
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Post by Roswell on Jul 21, 2021 15:52:32 GMT -5
I think the writing was on the wall that Coughlin would get fired when Beckham had that meltdown vs Carolina and Coughlin did nothing to reign him in and even denied realizing that some of it was happening. I was talking about Jax. No you weren't.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jul 21, 2021 16:24:29 GMT -5
I can't lie, I disliked Tiki ratting out his HC on CBA violations but that doesn't make TC right for what he did. I guess Tiki's actions violated my sense of how a team should work (ie protect one another) On the other hand, TC didn't uphold his end of the "team bargain" either. The CBA is there to protect players and shouldn't be dismissed by anyone. A buddy of mine told me about a tape or tapes of Tom’s method of motivating his college players when he was at BC. Hearing about impacted my opinion of him. From what I remember, Tom was lucky those tapes were never made public.
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Post by Morehead State on Jul 21, 2021 16:35:36 GMT -5
I can't lie, I disliked Tiki ratting out his HC on CBA violations but that doesn't make TC right for what he did. I guess Tiki's actions violated my sense of how a team should work (ie protect one another) On the other hand, TC didn't uphold his end of the "team bargain" either. The CBA is there to protect players and shouldn't be dismissed by anyone. A buddy of mine told me about a tape or tapes of Tom’s method of motivating his college players when he was at BC. Hearing about impacted my opinion of him. From what I remember, Tom was lucky those tapes were never made public. I keep going back to Ernie's book when he watched TC in front of his team.
"My God he does treat them like children".
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