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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 8:45:32 GMT -5
Not really Red. $16MM of it was Odell all by himself. That is on Dave. He signed him. $3M is Omameh....also on Dave.
Other than Odell, he decided to trade Vernon and Snacks.. They were starting players for us. Those two are over $11M in dead money. Apple (who is a starting CB on a very good defense) was another $2+MM.
Over $20MM is directly on Dave. Guys HE signed then dumped. The other $18MM or so are guys who were starting for us and Dave dumped.
So to say the $40MM is on JR really misses the mark.
im surprised you think any of the Beckham decisions weren’t made solely by the owner. Could be. Either way we have $40MM in dead cap money. That's not on the old regime.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 8:51:22 GMT -5
im surprised you think any of the Beckham decisions weren’t made solely by the owner. Could be. Either way we have $40MM in dead cap money. That's not on the old regime.
Of course it is, in part. The GM inherited an absolute mess of a team, as most GMs do. At the end of the day, are the Giants a better team this year than they have been over the last two years? Does their cap situation dramatically improve next year when the team is ready to turn the corner? These are the pertinent questions one should ask when evaluating the GM that inherited the mess.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 8:56:07 GMT -5
im surprised you think any of the Beckham decisions weren’t made solely by the owner. Could be. Either way we have $40MM in dead cap money. That's not on the old regime.
Yes, we know this, you keep saying it. And yet it continues to be the right decision to make after the bad decision to sign him long term in the first place. Would you prefer they just keep throwing good money after bad? Reese did a lot of that, didn't work out to well by the end. How about his decision to throw a bunch of money at an under performing DE that just blew his hand off? It was a 50/50 decision to throw that kind of money at JPP before he blew his hand off, to do it after was just stupid. At least in OBJ case, he was a top performer and looks to be a continued top performer. Not a player that was no longer the dominant pass rusher he once was.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 9:00:28 GMT -5
Could be. Either way we have $40MM in dead cap money. That's not on the old regime.
Of course it is, in part. The GM inherited an absolute mess of a team, as most GMs do. At the end of the day, are the Giants a better team this year than they have been over the last two years? Does their cap situation dramatically improve next year when the team is ready to turn the corner? These are the pertinent questions one should ask when evaluating the GM that inherited the mess. You are in discussion with a person who complains on one thread that the Giants are wasting a roster spot on Alex Tanney and then says on another that they entered the season with only 2 RBs because the 3rd wasn't active on gameday. Still hasn't explained the discounting of the 4th, but hey, facts are minutia. Do you really expect pertinent questioning there?
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 9:14:00 GMT -5
Could be. Either way we have $40MM in dead cap money. That's not on the old regime.
Of course it is, in part. The GM inherited an absolute mess of a team, as most GMs do. At the end of the day, are the Giants a better team this year than they have been over the last two years? Does their cap situation dramatically improve next year when the team is ready to turn the corner? These are the pertinent questions one should ask when evaluating the GM that inherited the mess. I don't agree at all but it really is immaterial at this point.
We DO have $40MM+ in dead cap money. That DOES prevent us from have good vet depth all over our football team. When guys get hurt we have a lot of very inexperienced players on the field. (like taxi squad RB's)
If you want to blame JR for Dave signing Odell then trading him, signing Omameh then dumping him that's on you.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 9:24:21 GMT -5
Of course it is, in part. The GM inherited an absolute mess of a team, as most GMs do. At the end of the day, are the Giants a better team this year than they have been over the last two years? Does their cap situation dramatically improve next year when the team is ready to turn the corner? These are the pertinent questions one should ask when evaluating the GM that inherited the mess. I don't agree at all but it really is immaterial at this point.
We DO have $40MM+ in dead cap money. That DOES prevent us from have good vet depth all over our football team. When guys get hurt we have a lot of very inexperienced players on the field. (like taxi squad RB's)
If you want to blame JR for Dave signing Odell then trading him, signing Omameh then dumping him that's on you. [/b] [/div][/quote]I really don't see where you are reading anyone claiming that anywhere on this thread. Or any thread. You are the only person referencing this.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 9:34:20 GMT -5
Of course it is, in part. The GM inherited an absolute mess of a team, as most GMs do. At the end of the day, are the Giants a better team this year than they have been over the last two years? Does their cap situation dramatically improve next year when the team is ready to turn the corner? These are the pertinent questions one should ask when evaluating the GM that inherited the mess. I don't agree at all but it really is immaterial at this point.
We DO have $40MM+ in dead cap money. That DOES prevent us from have good vet depth all over our football team. When guys get hurt we have a lot of very inexperienced players on the field. (like taxi squad RB's)
If you want to blame JR for Dave signing Odell then trading him, signing Omameh then dumping him that's on you.
Here's the thing though, no matter what DG does he doesn't have that 40 million in cap space to spend on these mystery veteran depth players you speak of. Either we have 40mil in dead cap space with guys like ODB, Snacks and OV off the roster and that 40 mil freed up next year. Or, that 40 mil is tied up in those named players and they are playing on the team this year. Either way, that money isn't available to sign a veteran RB to be that steady third string RB we need. There is no option where most of that 40 mil is available to the team this offseason. The only real argument here is whether it was a good idea to move on from these players, or to try and rebuild with them on the team.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 9:37:25 GMT -5
I don't agree at all but it really is immaterial at this point.
We DO have $40MM+ in dead cap money. That DOES prevent us from have good vet depth all over our football team. When guys get hurt we have a lot of very inexperienced players on the field. (like taxi squad RB's)
If you want to blame JR for Dave signing Odell then trading him, signing Omameh then dumping him that's on you.
Here's the thing though, no matter what DG does he doesn't have that 40 million in cap space to spend on these mystery veteran depth players you speak of. Either we have 40mil in dead cap space with guys like ODB, Snacks and OV off the roster and that 40 mil freed up next year. Or, that 40 mil is tied up in those named players and they are playing on the team this year. Either way, that money isn't available to sign a veteran RB to be that steady third string RB we need. There is no option where most of that 40 mil is available to the team this offseason. The only real argument here is whether it was a good idea to move on from these players, or to try and rebuild with them on the team. There were plenty of vet CB's, RB's, LB's and O linemen that we could have brought in for solid depth.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 9:41:59 GMT -5
Here's the thing though, no matter what DG does he doesn't have that 40 million in cap space to spend on these mystery veteran depth players you speak of. Either we have 40mil in dead cap space with guys like ODB, Snacks and OV off the roster and that 40 mil freed up next year. Or, that 40 mil is tied up in those named players and they are playing on the team this year. Either way, that money isn't available to sign a veteran RB to be that steady third string RB we need. There is no option where most of that 40 mil is available to the team this offseason. The only real argument here is whether it was a good idea to move on from these players, or to try and rebuild with them on the team. There were plenty of vet CB's, RB's, LB's and O linemen that we could have brought in for solid depth. With what money? As I said, either that 40 mil is dead cap space, or it is tied up in OV, ODB and Snacks. It's still not available. And why would they want to tie any money up in vets when they are clearly in a rebuilding year? You think Connelly gets any playing time if we had signed some of that vet LBer depth?
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 9:44:31 GMT -5
Here's the thing though, no matter what DG does he doesn't have that 40 million in cap space to spend on these mystery veteran depth players you speak of. Either we have 40mil in dead cap space with guys like ODB, Snacks and OV off the roster and that 40 mil freed up next year. Or, that 40 mil is tied up in those named players and they are playing on the team this year. Either way, that money isn't available to sign a veteran RB to be that steady third string RB we need. There is no option where most of that 40 mil is available to the team this offseason. The only real argument here is whether it was a good idea to move on from these players, or to try and rebuild with them on the team. There were plenty of vet CB's, RB's, LB's and O linemen that we could have brought in for solid depth. And they could have done that. But I don't think that would be the right decision to improve this team long term. It might have made them win a few more games this year.
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Post by TCHOF on Oct 15, 2019 9:48:55 GMT -5
There were plenty of vet CB's, RB's, LB's and O linemen that we could have brought in for solid depth. With what money? As I said, either that 40 mil is dead cap space, or it is tied up in OV, ODB and Snacks. It's still not available. And why would they want to tie any money up in vets when they are clearly in a rebuilding year? You think Connelly gets any playing time if we had signed some of that vet LBer depth? Exactly.
The "dead money" issue is a red-herring. This was always going to be a rebuilding year with a rookie QB. Get the bad contracts off the books and hit 202o running ....
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 9:51:31 GMT -5
With what money? As I said, either that 40 mil is dead cap space, or it is tied up in OV, ODB and Snacks. It's still not available. And why would they want to tie any money up in vets when they are clearly in a rebuilding year? You think Connelly gets any playing time if we had signed some of that vet LBer depth? Exactly.
The "dead money" issue is a red-herring. This was always going to be a rebuilding year with a rookie QB. Get the bad contracts off the books and hit 202o running ....
I honestly cannot fathom how people believe anything else.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 9:58:32 GMT -5
Exactly.
The "dead money" issue is a red-herring. This was always going to be a rebuilding year with a rookie QB. Get the bad contracts off the books and hit 202o running ....
I honestly cannot fathom how people believe anything else. I get it to some degree with the team keeping Eli on board. But, if you look at every action this team has taken outside of keeping Eli on the team this year, everything they've done since Oct 2018 has been about rebuilding the team. And keeping Eli on the team this year, and his 17 mil cap hit, likely helped forced them into using young guys like Connelly, Slayton and Ximines as opposed to playing the Danny Amendolas and Kerry Wynns of the world.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 10:04:19 GMT -5
I honestly cannot fathom how people believe anything else. I get it to some degree with the team keeping Eli on board. But, if you look at every action this team has taken outside of keeping Eli on the team this year, everything they've done since Oct 2018 has been about rebuilding the team. And keeping Eli on the team this year, and his 17 mil cap hit, likely helped forced them into using young guys like Connelly, Slayton and Ximines as opposed to playing the Danny Amendolas and Kerry Wynns of the world. They kept Eli on board (which I was totally against) because they felt it was best for DJ's development. They also knew that THIS was going to be the year to clear out all the strangulating contracts. So Eli's contract doesn't mean a hell of a lot in the terms of cap space this year.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 10:08:09 GMT -5
I was wondering why nobody was discussing all the dead money and how hard it is to field a competitive team with this much. I guess we now get the chance and like others are saying it's 2020 for them or see you later! I think 2021
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 10:38:14 GMT -5
I was wondering why nobody was discussing all the dead money and how hard it is to field a competitive team with this much. I guess we now get the chance and like others are saying it's 2020 for them or see you later! I think 2021 Lets hope they get better so this restart doesn't happen any of these years..
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 11:31:45 GMT -5
The Odell trade cost us dearly, cap wise. I still believe that was more a higher up FO thing than it was DG and Shumur. JMO. I still think the ODB trade was not about removing him from the team as much as it was using our best trade chip to get back as many assets as possible on what would obviously be a rebuilding team. They got back a lot more by trading him than they would have with any comp pick from letting him walk. And while the team paid a lot out in guaranteed money, they aren't hurting for money and the pain of the cap hit goes away after this season.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 11:33:07 GMT -5
There were plenty of vet CB's, RB's, LB's and O linemen that we could have brought in for solid depth. With what money? As I said, either that 40 mil is dead cap space, or it is tied up in OV, ODB and Snacks. It's still not available. And why would they want to tie any money up in vets when they are clearly in a rebuilding year? You think Connelly gets any playing time if we had signed some of that vet LBer depth? My point exactly.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 11:39:18 GMT -5
With what money? As I said, either that 40 mil is dead cap space, or it is tied up in OV, ODB and Snacks. It's still not available. And why would they want to tie any money up in vets when they are clearly in a rebuilding year? You think Connelly gets any playing time if we had signed some of that vet LBer depth? My point exactly. Your response makes no sense. You claiming that DG's cap mismanagement robbed us of the ability to sign vets to fill the roster. I saying that we wouldn't have had the cap space this year no matter what, better to feel the pain in 1 season and try to find as many cheap young gems as possible. You seem to be mad they didn't sign the Danny Amendolas and Mike Davis' of the world to fill the roster instead of seeing what we had in youngster like Hilliman and Slayton.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 11:49:14 GMT -5
Your response makes no sense. You claiming that DG's cap mismanagement robbed us of the ability to sign vets to fill the roster. I saying that we wouldn't have had the cap space this year no matter what, better to feel the pain in 1 season and try to find as many cheap young gems as possible. You seem to be mad they didn't sign the Danny Amendolas and Mike Davis' of the world to fill the roster instead of seeing what we had in youngster like Hilliman and Slayton. Why don't you think we would have the cap space? How much of the cap was their contracts and how much was paying up the bonuses a year early? I figured it was all prorating of the bonuses when trading them is why they couldn't sign some players with them still on the team..
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 11:52:23 GMT -5
Your response makes no sense. You claiming that DG's cap mismanagement robbed us of the ability to sign vets to fill the roster. I saying that we wouldn't have had the cap space this year no matter what, better to feel the pain in 1 season and try to find as many cheap young gems as possible. You seem to be mad they didn't sign the Danny Amendolas and Mike Davis' of the world to fill the roster instead of seeing what we had in youngster like Hilliman and Slayton. I never said that I believed Dave mismanaged anything. What I did say is that we have $40MM in dead cap money and the precludes us from filling out our roster with veteran depth. That is simply objectively true.
A point you seem to agree with, yet still want to fight over.
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Post by Morehead State on Oct 15, 2019 11:55:03 GMT -5
Your response makes no sense. You claiming that DG's cap mismanagement robbed us of the ability to sign vets to fill the roster. I saying that we wouldn't have had the cap space this year no matter what, better to feel the pain in 1 season and try to find as many cheap young gems as possible. You seem to be mad they didn't sign the Danny Amendolas and Mike Davis' of the world to fill the roster instead of seeing what we had in youngster like Hilliman and Slayton. Why don't you think we would have the cap space? How much of the cap was their contracts and how much was paying up the bonuses a year early? I figured it was all prorating of the bonuses when trading them is why they couldn't sign some players with them still on the team.. When you trade or release a player, the entirety of his deferred bonus must be applied in total in that season.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 12:10:57 GMT -5
Why don't you think we would have the cap space? How much of the cap was their contracts and how much was paying up the bonuses a year early? I figured it was all prorating of the bonuses when trading them is why they couldn't sign some players with them still on the team.. When you trade or release a player, the entirety of his deferred bonus must be applied in total in that season. I know this but I'm not sure the person responding understands it that's why I asked them. What that total is would be nice to know but it wouldn't change anything any ways.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 12:34:51 GMT -5
Your response makes no sense. You claiming that DG's cap mismanagement robbed us of the ability to sign vets to fill the roster. I saying that we wouldn't have had the cap space this year no matter what, better to feel the pain in 1 season and try to find as many cheap young gems as possible. You seem to be mad they didn't sign the Danny Amendolas and Mike Davis' of the world to fill the roster instead of seeing what we had in youngster like Hilliman and Slayton. I never said that I believed Dave mismanaged anything. What I did say is that we have $40MM in dead cap money and the precludes us from filling out our roster with veteran depth. That is simply objectively true.
A point you seem to agree with, yet still want to fight over.
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR.
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Post by jmike on Oct 15, 2019 12:48:48 GMT -5
I never said that I believed Dave mismanaged anything. What I did say is that we have $40MM in dead cap money and the precludes us from filling out our roster with veteran depth. That is simply objectively true.
A point you seem to agree with, yet still want to fight over.
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. not all the bad contracts were JR's. Most of the dead cap money is for OBJ and that is all on DG and Mara.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 12:49:31 GMT -5
I never said that I believed Dave mismanaged anything. What I did say is that we have $40MM in dead cap money and the precludes us from filling out our roster with veteran depth. That is simply objectively true.
A point you seem to agree with, yet still want to fight over.
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. And again you are incorrect with this comment due to having to payoff the prorated signing bonuses especially Beckham's which is totally on Getty. Maybe 2nd time is the charm..lol
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Post by BlueReign on Oct 15, 2019 13:26:13 GMT -5
This year was a lost cause so the dead cap hit doesn't matter at all.
The reason we suck is because of roughly a decade of bad drafting.
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Post by Roswell on Oct 15, 2019 13:26:55 GMT -5
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. not all the bad contracts were JR's. Most of the dead cap money is for OBJ and that is all on DG and Mara. I find it impossible to believe that DG had anything to do with signing Beckham to a $90m contract other than saying, “Yes, Mr Mara.” Additionally, when it came time to cut bait on that joker, again, it was “Yes, Mr. Mara. I will find a willing trade partner, Mr. Mara.” End of story. No GM signs (or trades and eats money) any player to $90m on a hands on owner’s team without it being the owner’s idea or without the owner’s say so. Not happening, especially on the Giants.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 13:28:46 GMT -5
From your original post --- "But he has played Russian Roulette with our future by paying a bunch of guys a lot of money NOT to play for us. He banked on a long shot for the 2019 Giants....and seems to have lost. Another wasted season.
That is why we have NO depth. That is why when OUR guys get hurt, the team falls apart. We are fielding a glorified college team if we can't stay healthy...and what NFL team ever stays healthy? "
You, literally, said the 2019 disaster is on Dave Gettleman. That sounds a whole lot like claiming mismanagement to me and you now seem to be trying to backtrack on your subjective opinion that had some objective facts that you used to support your opinion. And again, you're claiming we would have money to spend on veteran depth if not for the dead cap space. I disagree, because, the reason we have dead cap space is because we shed bad contracts. If we had kept those contracts (the only other option to DG), we still would not have had cap space to sign anyone this year. So, in other words, you're complaining about us not being able to sign veteran depth that we never would have been able to sign, regardless of how DG handled the cap this past offseason, other than restructuring of these bad contracts from JR. And again you are incorrect with this comment due to having to payoff the prorated signing bonuses especially Beckham's which is totally on Getty. Maybe 2nd time is the charm..lol You're greatly over estimated the amount of cap space this team would have still had if we had kept OBJ on the books, and especially overestimating the ability of the team to sign "veteran depth" with that cap space considering OBJ turned into three current players all on cheap contracts who would be on the roster today, and thus, whose spots would have had to have been filled with what would have likely been older, less effective players. I remember it wasn't too long ago people were complaining about the team constantly patching holes with nominal veteran players and having young players rot on the bench. The new GM takes the actions necessary to reserve that course and people are now complaining we don't have enough nominal veteran players to fill out the roster.
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Post by trueblueatnyc on Oct 15, 2019 13:32:45 GMT -5
not all the bad contracts were JR's. Most of the dead cap money is for OBJ and that is all on DG and Mara. I find it impossible to believe that DG had anything to do with signing Beckham to a $90m contract other than saying, “Yes, Mr Mara.” Additionally, when it came time to cut bait on that joker, again, it was “Yes, Mr. Mara. I will find a willing trade partner, Mr. Mara.” End of story. No GM signs (or trades and eats money) any player to $90m on a hands on owner’s team without it being the owner’s idea or without the owner’s say so. Not happening, especially on the Giants. I doubt he traded ODB without running it by Mara, but, I don't think he was under orders to trade ODB either. It made no sense to have a really high priced WR on the books for several years while you're in the middle of a rebuild. Especially since his value was at it's greatest BECAUSE they had him signed and were eating some of the money. Teams do these kinds of moves in other sports fairly frequently. It's certainly different to do it in football, but it does make sense.
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