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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 11, 2018 12:33:38 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that under McAdoo; the Giants wasted two years of football. But this happens to all players in all team sports.
If you believe the Giants wasted Eli's career, then tell me why they would do such a thing?
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Post by Dave_NYG on Jun 11, 2018 12:39:37 GMT -5
Look around the league. Are the Packers wasting Rodgers? Steelers wasting Ben? Saints wasting Brees? No, it’s just how football goes when you’re not named Tom Brady.
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Post by JoeBigBlue on Jun 11, 2018 12:43:15 GMT -5
The Giants have done no favors for Eli for the last 4 years at the very least.
It would at least seem they've fixed this to at least a certain degree this year, but of course we won't know until the games are played.
Come on Eli......show everyone you still got some gas in the tank.
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Post by nick030567 on Jun 11, 2018 12:48:31 GMT -5
They didn't purposely waste his prime. They just squandered it away by stubbornly trotting out the same nucleus of o-linemen after a failed rebuild in 2014. Including ignoring signs of an aging o-line starting in 2010. The first true move to try and rebuild the line was when they drafted Pugh, Pugh is not the kind of linemen that should protect an immobile qb.Likewise he isn't a very good run blocker, Pugh is just okay and he was outplayed by his replacement when he was injured. Then the Schwartz signing was just bad luck, Richburg was very similar to Pugh (soft, more of a finesse kind of linemen, never got a push in the run game). Jerry is the kind of linemen that can pass block well until the game is on the line, and was a terrible run blocker. THen you have Flowers who should've never been the LT past his rookie season when they were sort of forced to play him at LT. Newhouse would be okay if he had very good players around him I believe. Then there was Bobby Hart who turned out to be really soft and entitled. I think the real squandering (outside of McADoo's horrible scheme after Coughlin left) was just the fact that after 2015 they essentially went with the same soft O-line in 2016, and then stubbornly went with the same line in 2017. It was as if the front office thought they fixed the O-line in 2014 when they made an attempt to and it was obvious that their moves failed going in to 2016. In addition they really let the defense go downhill after 2008 which didn't help when the offense was putting up serious points (despite no running game) in 2015. I know they won the Super Bowl in 2011, and the d wasn't terrible in 2010 but they just never were a true threat defensively until 2016. Even when they weren't playing great the defense was always feared to an extent between 2005-2008 because of their pass rush. That really disappeared, especially from 2012 to 2015.
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Post by nick030567 on Jun 11, 2018 13:39:31 GMT -5
Look at what the Broncos did with Peyton the last few years of his career. They made sure he was always protected because of his immobility. This also helped him always have a running game to assist the passing game.
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Post by Fletch842 on Jun 11, 2018 13:51:29 GMT -5
Look at what the Broncos did with Peyton the last few years of his career. They made sure he was always protected because of his immobility. This also helped him always have a running game to assist the passing game. and one nasty defense!!
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 13:55:43 GMT -5
Look around the league. Are the Packers wasting Rodgers? Steelers wasting Ben? Saints wasting Brees? No, it’s just how football goes when you’re not named Tom Brady. the teams around those guys have all been good to very good talent wise,actually Ben has arguably the best receiver and beast running back in the game to work with, the Giants the last five years were bottom 4 in the league as far as talent goes and it all came to a head last year,and Brees until they upgraded the talent around him was heading down the same path as Eli,not good comparisons,the Giants talent wise needed to be compared to the Browns/colts/Jets/
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 14:02:56 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that under McAdoo; the Giants wasted two years of football. But this happens to all players in all team sports.
If you believe the Giants wasted Eli's career, then tell me why they would do such a thing?
think they were trying but couldn't get it right they dug a hole and it kept getting deeper by the time they turned there attention to the OL and missed on some key pieces the defense started falling apart,at that point as a team they became a bottom third team talent wise,in my humble opinion no one was gonna pull this team out of that hole,they had Eli and OBJ even 200+ million in free agency couldn't fix all the holes.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 14:05:39 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that under McAdoo; the Giants wasted two years of football. But this happens to all players in all team sports.
If you believe the Giants wasted Eli's career, then tell me why they would do such a thing?
and yes MacAdoo was lost once TC wasn't there to hold his hand anymore good point but they had 2 maybe 3 years before that they just didn't have the horses to compete that was on the front office.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 14:14:25 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched.
I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently.
I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again.
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Post by Speedman on Jun 11, 2018 14:27:37 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. No QB would have done anything with that OL, running game and coach.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 14:38:09 GMT -5
He played badly. I get the speculation that "no QB would have done anything......" But that can't be proven in any way. So maybe we should deal in facts. He had the same O line in 2015 as he did in 2016. Same or better WR's in 16. Yet his play fell off badly. It continued to fall off this past year. i will give you that the ODB injury was a killer. But jeez...what did he do to pick anyone up? You have to hang in the pocket and make some plays. He didn't do that at all.
Look at some of the tape, even with little or no pressure he is missing open guys. The bottom line is that without Odell, he really can't seem to function. So let's upgrade the O line and RB's. Let's give him Odell back this year and a great young TE. Let's make it perfect around him. I'm sure he will be able to function. Because it seems the only way he can.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 11, 2018 14:40:39 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly believe that under McAdoo; the Giants wasted two years of football. But this happens to all players in all team sports.
If you believe the Giants wasted Eli's career, then tell me why they would do such a thing?
and yes MacAdoo was lost once TC wasn't there to hold his hand anymore good point but they had 2 maybe 3 years before that they just didn't have the horses to compete that was on the front office.
I have a feeling they thought they did have the horses. How else could it be explained?
It's been argued that the OL has been an issue for 7 years - the running game about as long.
I would argue the Giants must have believed they had surrounded Eli with enough support, otherwise that would be a dereliction of duty.
Is that truly what I'm supposed to believe?
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 11, 2018 14:41:34 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. No QB would have done anything with that OL, running game and coach.
You could have just said "coach" and I would have been fine. O_o
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 15:20:45 GMT -5
Reese was gifted a franchise QB and yet he could not take advantage of it as often. Every other NFC East team had multiple QB during his tenure. The Browns alone started around 24 different QB lol. Reese' job was as easy as it can get. While teams were squandering picks and FA on different QB, all this guy had to do was focus on the rest of the team.
Looking forward to seeing the product DG puts out in 2018.
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 11, 2018 15:37:03 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. No QB would have done anything with that OL, running game and coach.
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Post by Delicreep on Jun 11, 2018 15:38:43 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. Given your description of Eli, I can't see how he could play better. That may have come out more flippant than I meant it, but he's not suddenly going to get mobile, right? The pass rush will come, just like it does for every team, right? He's not suddenly going to learn how to move, right? What is the plan to change his poor play?
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 11, 2018 15:40:21 GMT -5
In my opinion Eli has more to prove this year than any player on the team, we've added a superstar RB and we have excellent receivers and now a bolstered O line with much better players and now IMO its all up to Eli if he is able....
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Post by nick030567 on Jun 11, 2018 15:46:51 GMT -5
Look at what the Broncos did with Peyton the last few years of his career. They made sure he was always protected because of his immobility. This also helped him always have a running game to assist the passing game. and one nasty defense!! I was going to add that as well haha!! That defense pretty much won them that championship, and their running game.
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Byron
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Post by Byron on Jun 11, 2018 16:08:09 GMT -5
and yes MacAdoo was lost once TC wasn't there to hold his hand anymore good point but they had 2 maybe 3 years before that they just didn't have the horses to compete that was on the front office.
I have a feeling they thought they did have the horses. How else could it be explained?
It's been argued that the OL has been an issue for 7 years - the running game about as long.
I would argue the Giants must have believed they had surrounded Eli with enough support, otherwise that would be a dereliction of duty.
Is that truly what I'm supposed to believe?
I think they tried but maybe they didn't start rebuilding it soon enough , and stuck with some older players they should have moved on from .. but what ever, I don't think anything was done intentionally, just the way things played out ... As far as Eli goes for me he gets this year before I jump on the he's done bandwagon ... Those that are whining he is done now are going to have a long season waiting to pounce on any mistake he makes nothing new on that front its an old message ...
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 16:15:54 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. Given your description of Eli, I can't see how he could play better. That may have come out more flippant than I meant it, but he's not suddenly going to get mobile, right? The pass rush will come, just like it does for every team, right? He's not suddenly going to learn how to move, right? What is the plan to change his poor play? I'm a fan deli. I don't have one. My plan is to watch my team and root my ass off. Having said that.......If he has enough great players...I think he can function.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 16:19:13 GMT -5
It's not the team's job to serve the player. It's the player's job to serve the team. Anyone with eyes can see he simply isn't the same guy he was 5 or 6 years ago. He HAS had the most dynamic WR in the game since 2014. He simply isn't playing very well anymore. he can't handle a pass rush in any way anymore. He can't move at all unless it's to go down without being touched. I wish we had had better personnel on the O line. But his immobility exacerbates the problem. You ARE going to see a pass rush. That is a fact in the NFL. That WILL be a fact in 2018. He better be able to handle it better than he has recently. I am not surprised that his buddy O'Hara is defending him. Good friend. But Eli needs to play better or we will end up at the bottom of the division yet again. You are welcome to your opinion no matter how far off it is. If the player is a QB ,yes it is. I assume you speak of Odell and you say since 2014 ,let us not forget he went 11-5 with Odell and odell only and 3-13 without any receivers at all or running game or O line. It is the responsibility of the FO to get talent and surround the QB with the right people to get the job done and the Giants have not done that in years. The interesting thing is how you try to spin away the thoughts of O'Hara about the situation as just a friend of Eli's instead of a football insider who knows more about football the Giants and the QB situation then all of us combined.We understand you hate Eli and wanted a QB in the draft ,people ,fans such as yourself need to get over it and move on. He was Eli's center for years and they are good friends. He is going to be very complimentary to him in his job. Everyone expects it and it's fine with me. We saw what happens to former Giants who criticize Eli Manning. They are called traitors and are booed at the stadium.
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Post by Waybackfan on Jun 11, 2018 16:36:32 GMT -5
Eli and the team won 2 Super Bowls.
And that's not enough?
Most teams don't win any.
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Post by Speedman on Jun 11, 2018 17:38:15 GMT -5
He played badly. I get the speculation that "no QB would have done anything......" But that can't be proven in any way. So maybe we should deal in facts. He had the same O line in 2015 as he did in 2016. Same or better WR's in 16. Yet his play fell off badly. It continued to fall off this past year. i will give you that the ODB injury was a killer. But jeez...what did he do to pick anyone up? You have to hang in the pocket and make some plays. He didn't do that at all. Look at some of the tape, even with little or no pressure he is missing open guys. The bottom line is that without Odell, he really can't seem to function. So let's upgrade the O line and RB's. Let's give him Odell back this year and a great young TE. Let's make it perfect around him. I'm sure he will be able to function. Because it seems the only way he can. Are you now building your case that Eli will play well this year because they upgraded the OL, RB and OBJ will be back so that you will still be able to throw daggers at him?
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Post by TEM on Jun 11, 2018 17:52:39 GMT -5
He played badly. I get the speculation that "no QB would have done anything......" But that can't be proven in any way. So maybe we should deal in facts. He had the same O line in 2015 as he did in 2016. Same or better WR's in 16. Yet his play fell off badly. It continued to fall off this past year. i will give you that the ODB injury was a killer. But jeez...what did he do to pick anyone up? You have to hang in the pocket and make some plays. He didn't do that at all. Look at some of the tape, even with little or no pressure he is missing open guys. The bottom line is that without Odell, he really can't seem to function. So let's upgrade the O line and RB's. Let's give him Odell back this year and a great young TE. Let's make it perfect around him. I'm sure he will be able to function. Because it seems the only way he can. Are you now building your case that Eli will play well this year because they upgraded the OL, RB and OBJ will be back so that you will still be able to throw daggers at him? That is what the I can not stand the Giants Qb fan club does. When the QB loses it is all on the QB , When he wins it is everyone around him. It is an a debate that sets themselves up to win . It is always a team win and only a QB loss. Welcome to the world of Giants MB
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 18:18:51 GMT -5
and yes MacAdoo was lost once TC wasn't there to hold his hand anymore good point but they had 2 maybe 3 years before that they just didn't have the horses to compete that was on the front office.
I have a feeling they thought they did have the horses. How else could it be explained?
It's been argued that the OL has been an issue for 7 years - the running game about as long.
I would argue the Giants must have believed they had surrounded Eli with enough support, otherwise that would be a dereliction of duty.
Is that truly what I'm supposed to believe?
Rosey this is a complicated situation or was,my honest opinion is that they wouldn't give up on their draft picks,and seeing how many of these guys careers ended when their Giants contract ended,they might have wanted these guys to grow into legit pro's,and been a little too loyal,even David Wilson was an A+ return man but a project at running back,just can't think of anyone but OBJ and Eli a Coordinator had to worry about,on defense the LBs stunk the Dline was average at best,I agree 100% on MacAdoo,but I still think they were slow to fill holes like at linebacker and tightend,and lacked talent in the most important place the trenches.
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Post by ThatGuyRich on Jun 11, 2018 18:58:45 GMT -5
They didn't purposely waste his prime. They just squandered it away by stubbornly trotting out the same nucleus of o-linemen after a failed rebuild in 2014. Including ignoring signs of an aging o-line starting in 2010. The first true move to try and rebuild the line was when they drafted Pugh, Pugh is not the kind of linemen that should protect an immobile qb.Likewise he isn't a very good run blocker, Pugh is just okay and he was outplayed by his replacement when he was injured. Then the Schwartz signing was just bad luck, Richburg was very similar to Pugh (soft, more of a finesse kind of linemen, never got a push in the run game). Jerry is the kind of linemen that can pass block well until the game is on the line, and was a terrible run blocker. THen you have Flowers who should've never been the LT past his rookie season when they were sort of forced to play him at LT. Newhouse would be okay if he had very good players around him I believe. Then there was Bobby Hart who turned out to be really soft and entitled. I think the real squandering (outside of McADoo's horrible scheme after Coughlin left) was just the fact that after 2015 they essentially went with the same soft O-line in 2016, and then stubbornly went with the same line in 2017. It was as if the front office thought they fixed the O-line in 2014 when they made an attempt to and it was obvious that their moves failed going in to 2016. In addition they really let the defense go downhill after 2008 which didn't help when the offense was putting up serious points (despite no running game) in 2015. I know they won the Super Bowl in 2011, and the d wasn't terrible in 2010 but they just never were a true threat defensively until 2016. Even when they weren't playing great the defense was always feared to an extent between 2005-2008 because of their pass rush. That really disappeared, especially from 2012 to 2015.
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jun 11, 2018 19:00:18 GMT -5
Gilbride's offense played beautifully to Eli's strengths when he had protection. They didn't fix the protection when it blew up and thought sticking Eli in an offense he was ill suited for was a good solution. He played the role of a good soldier, but I am not surprised if didn't work. Things rarely do when you attempt to jam a square peg in a round hole.
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Post by Speedman on Jun 11, 2018 19:53:42 GMT -5
Are you now building your case that Eli will play well this year because they upgraded the OL, RB and OBJ will be back so that you will still be able to throw daggers at him? That is what the I can not stand the Giants Qb fan club does. When the QB loses it is all on the QB , When he wins it is everyone around him. It is an a debate that sets themselves up to win . It is always a team win and only a QB loss. Welcome to the world of Giants MB You hit the nail on the head.
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Post by GameTime on Jun 11, 2018 20:54:24 GMT -5
Eli was part of the crappy play. He is accountable too
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