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Post by Delicreep on Jun 13, 2018 18:35:44 GMT -5
If what you say is true, then we should expect to see the same Eli we saw last year, unless it's your position that he will get better this year. I guess it depends. I figured Rivers was done when he sucked 5/6 years ago, then they rebuilt the team around him, he won comeback player of the year (another team award given to an individual, like league MVP and SB MVP) in 2013 and the team managed a couple of decent seasons. I watched Brees throw a dart right into a defenders gut on the last play of the last day of the season a couple of years ago, sealing a no playoff season for the Saints. And then I watched the Saints suck, not make the playoffs and then rebuild their defense and running game to get back to the playoffs last year. Shockingly, his numbers and much more importantly his results have improved as a consequence. As far as Manning is concerned, I hesitate to say this since everyone else seems so certain, but I just don’t know if he’s done or not. He might be. Crap, any of those old QBs can be done at any moment. But given the volatility just described over the past few years, I just don’t know the answer as far as Manning is concerned. I'm not sure if he's done either, but I am hoping for a shortish lease.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 18:44:32 GMT -5
If what you say is true, then we should expect to see the same Eli we saw last year, unless it's your position that he will get better this year. I expect him to function better this year...just s I would expect Mark Sanchez to function better with more weapons. But Eli is simply what he is anymore. A guy who needs huge talent around him to have any success at all. he has no ability to pick a team up. We saw that last year. I accept it. Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB. Makes no sense to me. Exactly. Just like every QB in the league not named Rodgers or Brady. I couldn’t agree more.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 18:54:35 GMT -5
I guess it depends. I figured Rivers was done when he sucked 5/6 years ago, then they rebuilt the team around him, he won comeback player of the year (another team award given to an individual, like league MVP and SB MVP) in 2013 and the team managed a couple of decent seasons. I watched Brees throw a dart right into a defenders gut on the last play of the last day of the season a couple of years ago, sealing a no playoff season for the Saints. And then I watched the Saints suck, not make the playoffs and then rebuild their defense and running game to get back to the playoffs last year. Shockingly, his numbers and much more importantly his results have improved as a consequence. As far as Manning is concerned, I hesitate to say this since everyone else seems so certain, but I just don’t know if he’s done or not. He might be. Crap, any of those old QBs can be done at any moment. But given the volatility just described over the past few years, I just don’t know the answer as far as Manning is concerned. I'm not sure if he's done either, but I am hoping for a shortish lease. Me too. But I guess it’s going to come down to the team. This team has fallen pretty far behind the league talent wise. It ain’t gonna get better overnight. I’d be fine with handing things over to a young QB while the talent upgrading continues.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 18:59:42 GMT -5
You misunderstand me my friend. I have always accepted Eli with all his strengths and weaknesses. My problem has always been with the folks who need him to be some kind of all time great. Eli has helped us win 2 SB's. I am eternally grateful for that. But I get what he is. He has been a very good QB in this league, but never a great one. Not even close as far as I'm concerned. And I am actually really curious that you seem to care about what I do and don't accept. I don't understand that. I agree with your assessment of Eli and his win loss record confirms it... I can't believe how many people are misunderstanding you.. It's getting very comical to see their responses and how they twist your words to fit their agenda to confront you... His assessment is right on. As evidenced by the fact that it works for pretty much every QB in the league. Tommorrow we discuss the new reports on the roundness of the earth.
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Post by Roswell on Jun 13, 2018 19:03:16 GMT -5
Once in a generation does a message board reach the ultimate crescendo. An epiphany of collective thought that rises above common reason to a staggering conclusion.
Comparing Eli Manning to tofu is that epiphany.
Nothing more can or should be said.
I think it belonged on the other board and that should have been the final post.
No one is topping that.
Well done Morehead.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 19:06:27 GMT -5
I expect him to function better this year...just s I would expect Mark Sanchez to function better with more weapons. But Eli is simply what he is anymore. A guy who needs huge talent around him to have any success at all. he has no ability to pick a team up. We saw that last year. I accept it. Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB. Makes no sense to me. Agreed.
If we can get 10 Pro bowlers on offense to play along side Eli...really get some top notch coaching and play calling, Eli might play as well as Mark Sanchez.
We can all hope!
Ahem! Sarcasman, contemplating a name change
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 13, 2018 19:08:42 GMT -5
I wonder where the line is drawn? If Eli had a better OL, would his performance have improved last year? I think marginally based on everything that happened last year. who was he throwing to and who was calling the plays? O line was a factor but Mac did no favors for the offense. You draw the line starting game 1 and go from there. No running game either... so it really is difficult to say... a speculative diminishing Eli with something left in the tank (2 years) should see improvements in all these areas... with his experience if he is adequate (average) then we have competitive games to watch. I just don't know if it is enough to WC it into the playoffs? However, if the Giants start out like last year then rebuilding is in full swing at that point.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 19:23:45 GMT -5
who was he throwing to and who was calling the plays? O line was a factor but Mac did no favors for the offense. You draw the line starting game 1 and go from there. No running game either... so it really is difficult to say... a speculative diminishing Eli with something left in the tank (2 years) should see improvements in all these areas... with his experience if he is adequate (average) then we have competitive games to watch. I just don't know if it is enough to WC it into the playoffs? However, if the Giants start out like last year then rebuilding is in full swing at that point. The playoffs is a nice dream but to me, not a very realistic one. This is is a 3-13 team. They have a long, long way to go to get back to the playoffs. A simple return to respectability would be fine by me.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 13, 2018 19:24:38 GMT -5
If what you say is true, then we should expect to see the same Eli we saw last year, unless it's your position that he will get better this year. I expect him to function better this year...just s I would expect Mark Sanchez to function better with more weapons. But Eli is simply what he is anymore. A guy who needs huge talent around him to have any success at all. he has no ability to pick a team up. We saw that last year. I accept it. Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB. Makes no sense to me. I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year?
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 13, 2018 19:38:46 GMT -5
Once in a generation does a message board reach the ultimate crescendo. An epiphany of collective thought that rises above common reason to a staggering conclusion. Comparing Eli Manning to tofu is that epiphany. Nothing more can or should be said. I think it belonged on the other board and that should have been the final post. No one is topping that. Well done Morehead. Mr. Roswell.....You complete me.
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Byron
Special Teams
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Post by Byron on Jun 13, 2018 19:47:35 GMT -5
I expect him to function better this year...just s I would expect Mark Sanchez to function better with more weapons. But Eli is simply what he is anymore. A guy who needs huge talent around him to have any success at all. he has no ability to pick a team up. We saw that last year. I accept it. Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB. Makes no sense to me. I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year? What's wrong with being "very or otherwise" supportive of the guy who has been chosen to be the starter this year ? My hope is this team Eli included play a hell of a lot better than what we saw last year ... does this make me a fan boy ? whatever , everything seems so left /right anymore .... Just kind of thinking out loud Rosie
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 13, 2018 19:56:16 GMT -5
I expect him to function better this year...just s I would expect Mark Sanchez to function better with more weapons. But Eli is simply what he is anymore. A guy who needs huge talent around him to have any success at all. he has no ability to pick a team up. We saw that last year. I accept it. Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB. Makes no sense to me. I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year? I think I told you this before but my wife and I had a few dinners with Lomas Brown, who was our LT for the 2000 Giants SB team. He told me that in that SB, Kerry Collins got hit early in the game and when they went back to the huddle, Collins' eyes were as big as saucers and they knew they were in trouble. As big and strong as Kerry was, he didn't like to get hit. That is where I think Eli is right now. I'm sure he's great with the red jersey when no one can hit him. In the actual games?...They are going to hit him and I fear he will revert to what he's been the last two years. Once he gets hit that "skittish" Eli will come out and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And every NFL teams know it. They know if you hit the guy his confidence goes out the window these days. We all hope he can overcome this but I fear it's just who 37 year old Eli is anymore. And he's not hard to hit because he's not hard to find. Nate Solder or not, Eli is going to get hit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2018 20:28:02 GMT -5
Eli was not hit much at all during the last two years. You know what threw him off? A coach who couldn’t scheme right and almost never attacked downfield. Literally the only game Eli was taking shots deep was in the playoff game vs GB. Every game but that was the same 3 step garbage and if nobody was open the play was dead. Is Mac still in the NFL? Maybe the entire NFL wont let go of the crap he pulled last year and its not just Giants fans.
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 13, 2018 20:56:40 GMT -5
No running game either... so it really is difficult to say... a speculative diminishing Eli with something left in the tank (2 years) should see improvements in all these areas... with his experience if he is adequate (average) then we have competitive games to watch. I just don't know if it is enough to WC it into the playoffs? However, if the Giants start out like last year then rebuilding is in full swing at that point. The playoffs is a nice dream but to me, not a very realistic one. This is is a 3-13 team. They have a long, long way to go to get back to the playoffs. A simple return to respectability would be fine by me. Hate reality... still believe in a record better than 3-13 which I have seen floated around the MBs more than once...
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 13, 2018 21:36:12 GMT -5
I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year? What's wrong with being "very or otherwise" supportive of the guy who has been chosen to be the starter this year ? My hope is this team Eli included play a hell of a lot better than what we saw last year ... does this make me a fan boy ? whatever , everything seems so left /right anymore .... Just kind of thinking out loud Rosie
No problem Byron. I probably didn't state my point clearly. The comment I made about fans being very supportive of Eli on a personal level was made in reference to MS's comment that "Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB." I think that is an accurate comment.
Fans take discussion on Eli very personally compared to the other players.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 21:55:10 GMT -5
I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year? I think I told you this before but my wife and I had a few dinners with Lomas Brown, who was our LT for the 2000 Giants SB team. He told me that in that SB, Kerry Collins got hit early in the game and when they went back to the huddle, Collins' eyes were as big as saucers and they knew they were in trouble. As big and strong as Kerry was, he didn't like to get hit. That is where I think Eli is right now. I'm sure he's great with the red jersey when no one can hit him. In the actual games?...They are going to hit him and I fear he will revert to what he's been the last two years. Once he gets hit that "skittish" Eli will come out and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And every NFL teams know it. They know if you hit the guy his confidence goes out the window these days. We all hope he can overcome this but I fear it's just who 37 year old Eli is anymore. And he's not hard to hit because he's not hard to find. Nate Solder or not, Eli is going to get hit. I share this concern going into this season. I have no idea whether it’s a valid concern because it’s not based in any logic nor am I aware of any evidence to support it - other than the obvious: the fact that no QB likes to get hit and they rarely perform well when getting constantly hit* - but I am worried about it. *yes, I remember the SF game, that’s why I said rarely.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 22:04:41 GMT -5
Eli was not hit much at all during the last two years. You know what threw him off? A coach who couldn’t scheme right and almost never attacked downfield. Literally the only game Eli was taking shots deep was in the playoff game vs GB. Every game but that was the same 3 step garbage and if nobody was open the play was dead. Is Mac still in the NFL? Maybe the entire NFL wont let go of the crap he pulled last year and its not just Giants fans. While I agree with you about this, there were times last year where he did have a play to make and didn’t or he felt pressure and went to ground. The latter can’t continue. I’m less concerned with him not making a play because that happens to all QBs. It could be that it was more glaring for the Giants last year because so few plays overall were made all year, I don’t know. But he needs to make plays in traffic and he needs to make plays with people in his face.
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 13, 2018 22:05:54 GMT -5
I agree with your last line. There is certainly a decent amount of Eli fans who are very supportive of him personally. Eli has become a QB that can be pressured off his game. And while that can happen to all QB’s, the great ones will fight through it and make plays when given the opportunity. We all witnessed that exact scenario with the Pats/Falcons Super Bowl. It was clear to me that Eli was unable to play with any confidence in McAdoo’s offense. The question I have with Eli is will he be able to play with confidence this year? I think I told you this before but my wife and I had a few dinners with Lomas Brown, who was our LT for the 2000 Giants SB team. He told me that in that SB, Kerry Collins got hit early in the game and when they went back to the huddle, Collins' eyes were as big as saucers and they knew they were in trouble. As big and strong as Kerry was, he didn't like to get hit. That is where I think Eli is right now. I'm sure he's great with the red jersey when no one can hit him. In the actual games?...They are going to hit him and I fear he will revert to what he's been the last two years. Once he gets hit that "skittish" Eli will come out and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And every NFL teams know it. They know if you hit the guy his confidence goes out the window these days. We all hope he can overcome this but I fear it's just who 37 year old Eli is anymore. And he's not hard to hit because he's not hard to find. Nate Solder or not, Eli is going to get hit.
Not sure if you told me that, but I have heard that about Kerry in that game. And we are in total agreement about Eli in that if Eli gets pressured too much, I don't expect him to play well.
However I am hopeful the changes with the offense will put defenses on their heels a bit. Think about having to stop Beckham, Engram, and Barkley. That trio should keep DC's awake at night, while taking pressure off of Eli at the same time.
Eli could do some serious damage in an offense like this.
Wishful thinking?
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 13, 2018 22:08:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately I remember reading Harooni retired from posting. He always had the best Eli gifs. We shared a love for Tiki and enjoyed critiquing Eli. I was a little bit late on that train though, I used to be one of Eli's biggest defenders. Eli's 2011 season is still legendary. I wish that season wasn't an anomoly for Eli.
Only Harooni would own that avatar my friend. You've been outed.
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Post by Sarcasman on Jun 13, 2018 22:10:32 GMT -5
What's wrong with being "very or otherwise" supportive of the guy who has been chosen to be the starter this year ? My hope is this team Eli included play a hell of a lot better than what we saw last year ... does this make me a fan boy ? whatever , everything seems so left /right anymore .... Just kind of thinking out loud Rosie No problem Byron. I probably didn't state my point clearly. The comment I made about fans being very supportive of Eli on a personal level was made in reference to MS's comment that "Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB." I think that is an accurate comment.
Fans take discussion on Eli very personally compared to the other players.
Was he ever truly great? I don’t think so. Certainly he he has been a very good QB who has been great at times, but consistently great? I don’t think so.
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Byron
Special Teams
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Post by Byron on Jun 13, 2018 22:28:44 GMT -5
No problem Byron. I probably didn't state my point clearly. The comment I made about fans being very supportive of Eli on a personal level was made in reference to MS's comment that "Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB." I think that is an accurate comment.
Fans take discussion on Eli very personally compared to the other players.
Was he ever truly great? I don’t think so. Certainly he he has been a very good QB who has been great at times, but consistently great? I don’t think so. See this is a reasonable statement I can get behind ... what happens this year will determine his future and with that said he's pretty much a year to year guy imho .... I really don't care what happened last year any more... over , done , history Go Giants !
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Byron
Special Teams
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Post by Byron on Jun 13, 2018 22:35:42 GMT -5
What's wrong with being "very or otherwise" supportive of the guy who has been chosen to be the starter this year ? My hope is this team Eli included play a hell of a lot better than what we saw last year ... does this make me a fan boy ? whatever , everything seems so left /right anymore .... Just kind of thinking out loud Rosie
No problem Byron. I probably didn't state my point clearly. The comment I made about fans being very supportive of Eli on a personal level was made in reference to MS's comment that "Many folks here seem to NEED to think that Eli is still some great QB." I think that is an accurate comment.
Fans take discussion on Eli very personally compared to the other players.
I can't disagree with that Rosie but FCS you'd think they'd get tired after awhile !
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 14, 2018 5:46:14 GMT -5
I think I told you this before but my wife and I had a few dinners with Lomas Brown, who was our LT for the 2000 Giants SB team. He told me that in that SB, Kerry Collins got hit early in the game and when they went back to the huddle, Collins' eyes were as big as saucers and they knew they were in trouble. As big and strong as Kerry was, he didn't like to get hit. That is where I think Eli is right now. I'm sure he's great with the red jersey when no one can hit him. In the actual games?...They are going to hit him and I fear he will revert to what he's been the last two years. Once he gets hit that "skittish" Eli will come out and there is nothing anyone can do about it. And every NFL teams know it. They know if you hit the guy his confidence goes out the window these days. We all hope he can overcome this but I fear it's just who 37 year old Eli is anymore. And he's not hard to hit because he's not hard to find. Nate Solder or not, Eli is going to get hit.
Not sure if you told me that, but I have heard that about Kerry in that game. And we are in total agreement about Eli in that if Eli gets pressured too much, I don't expect him to play well.
However I am hopeful the changes with the offense will put defenses on their heels a bit. Think about having to stop Beckham, Engram, and Barkley. That trio should keep DC's awake at night, while taking pressure off of Eli at the same time.
Eli could do some serious damage in an offense like this.
Wishful thinking?
It's the same proclamation that many have been saying before each season, for quite a few years now. Of course Barkley is a different type threat, who is versatile and will get more touches - but the "weapons" theory has proved to be completely false... without the line protection. But I do believe that, plus the complimentary blocking, will be much improved this coming season.
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 14, 2018 5:53:11 GMT -5
Eli was not hit much at all during the last two years. You know what threw him off? A coach who couldn’t scheme right and almost never attacked downfield. Literally the only game Eli was taking shots deep was in the playoff game vs GB. Every game but that was the same 3 step garbage and if nobody was open the play was dead. Is Mac still in the NFL? Maybe the entire NFL wont let go of the crap he pulled last year and its not just Giants fans. While I agree with you about this, there were times last year where he did have a play to make and didn’t or he felt pressure and went to ground. The latter can’t continue. I’m less concerned with him not making a play because that happens to all QBs. It could be that it was more glaring for the Giants last year because so few plays overall were made all year, I don’t know. But he needs to make plays in traffic and he needs to make plays with people in his face. I believe Manning still has the physical tools and cerebral ability for finding the best option receiver in him, but regaining the confidence to hang in there in a less than perfect pocket is going to be a big question mark. He could probably make a dozen more productive plays per game, if he does that. But will preseason drills or limited time in games bring that - or will he or the line itself need more than a couple regular season games to establish effectiveness?
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Post by Speedman on Jun 14, 2018 8:44:34 GMT -5
While I agree with you about this, there were times last year where he did have a play to make and didn’t or he felt pressure and went to ground. The latter can’t continue. I’m less concerned with him not making a play because that happens to all QBs. It could be that it was more glaring for the Giants last year because so few plays overall were made all year, I don’t know. But he needs to make plays in traffic and he needs to make plays with people in his face. I believe Manning still has the physical tools and cerebral ability for finding the best option receiver in him, but regaining the confidence to hang in there in a less than perfect pocket is going to be a big question mark. He could probably make a dozen more productive plays per game, if he does that. But will preseason drills or limited time in games bring that - or will he or the line itself need more than a couple regular season games to establish effectiveness? Every QB has a clock in his head. Last years OL had that clock set way to quickly. If this OL gives him a little more time I think his clock will be reset.
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 14, 2018 9:02:42 GMT -5
I believe Manning still has the physical tools and cerebral ability for finding the best option receiver in him, but regaining the confidence to hang in there in a less than perfect pocket is going to be a big question mark. He could probably make a dozen more productive plays per game, if he does that. But will preseason drills or limited time in games bring that - or will he or the line itself need more than a couple regular season games to establish effectiveness? Every QB has a clock in his head. Last years OL had that clock set way to quickly. If this OL gives him a little more time I think his clock will be reset. That's fine, but when can we expect this to occur? Time is not on his side, and there appear to be certain expectations for THIS season.
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Post by Delicreep on Jun 14, 2018 9:05:15 GMT -5
I believe Manning still has the physical tools and cerebral ability for finding the best option receiver in him, but regaining the confidence to hang in there in a less than perfect pocket is going to be a big question mark. He could probably make a dozen more productive plays per game, if he does that. But will preseason drills or limited time in games bring that - or will he or the line itself need more than a couple regular season games to establish effectiveness? Every QB has a clock in his head. Last years OL had that clock set way to quickly. If this OL gives him a little more time I think his clock will be reset. I have a lot of concerns about that clock being reset.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 14, 2018 9:36:07 GMT -5
I believe Manning still has the physical tools and cerebral ability for finding the best option receiver in him, but regaining the confidence to hang in there in a less than perfect pocket is going to be a big question mark. He could probably make a dozen more productive plays per game, if he does that. But will preseason drills or limited time in games bring that - or will he or the line itself need more than a couple regular season games to establish effectiveness? Every QB has a clock in his head. Last years OL had that clock set way to quickly. If this OL gives him a little more time I think his clock will be reset. Not sure if that's true but we can hope. Eli's "clock" has always been set pretty early, and he's never had the tendency to hit the snooze button.
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 14, 2018 9:55:15 GMT -5
couldn't it be said about most QBs in the NFL that if they had more talented players around them they would play a lot better, I guess thats true but in the real world you play with what you have. Didn't we all see Trent Dilfer win a SB with the Ravens, that proves my point but how many teams can afford to buy the players they need to be successful. Whats needed is a smart GM and good quality coaching and we seem to have that right now and if it shows up this season then it is all on the owners and Jerry Reese, one for being stubborn and the other for being incompetent..
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Post by snyder55 on Jun 14, 2018 9:58:06 GMT -5
Was he ever truly great? I don’t think so. Certainly he he has been a very good QB who has been great at times, but consistently great? I don’t think so. See this is a reasonable statement I can get behind ... what happens this year will determine his future and with that said he's pretty much a year to year guy imho .... I really don't care what happened last year any more... over , done , history Go Giants ! I never felt Eli was ever a great QB and more mediocre than great but he had his "lucky" moments..
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