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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 20:58:47 GMT -5
Are you now building your case that Eli will play well this year because they upgraded the OL, RB and OBJ will be back so that you will still be able to throw daggers at him? That is what the I can not stand the Giants Qb fan club does. When the QB loses it is all on the QB , When he wins it is everyone around him. It is an a debate that sets themselves up to win . It is always a team win and only a QB loss. Welcome to the world of Giants MB  As TC would say it is always team first and the giants had a long slow death from contender to doormat thats how it goes when a teams talent gets drained to the point of no return,as the old saying goes the QB and coach get to much credit when they lose and the same goes for when they win,the last 5-6 years you could have brought Brady or big Ben in here they would have probably went off and spoke up about the lack of talent, look at ben he has a great supporting cast the best receiver in the game and the best running back in the game,it's about the team around the main man otherwise as Ohara put it your just waisting that guys time. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 21:03:37 GMT -5
No QB would have done anything with that OL, running game and coach. thats a fact having one great receiver and a good QB don't get it done the team was drained down to nothing it was os bad they had to spend 200+million and that only fixed half the problem this team talent wise was a bottom 4 team,they belonged with the browns and jets and colts san fran before Jimmy G they were bad. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 11, 2018 21:11:51 GMT -5
I have a feeling they thought they did have the horses. How else could it be explained?
It's been argued that the OL has been an issue for 7 years - the running game about as long.
I would argue the Giants must have believed they had surrounded Eli with enough support, otherwise that would be a dereliction of duty.
Is that truly what I'm supposed to believe?
Rosey this is a complicated situation or was,my honest opinion is that they wouldn't give up on their draft picks,and seeing how many of these guys careers ended when their Giants contract ended,they might have wanted these guys to grow into legit pro's,and been a little too loyal,even David Wilson was an A+ return man but a project at running back,just can't think of anyone but OBJ and Eli a Coordinator had to worry about,on defense the LBs stunk the Dline was average at best,I agree 100% on MacAdoo,but I still think they were slow to fill holes like at linebacker and tightend,and lacked talent in the most important place the trenches. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that we were inferior. I just don't believe the Giants thought they were.
Jerry Reese ignored positions as you stated and John Mara bought into it.
I cannot help but question both John and Chris Mara with their running of the Giants.
Chris on the other hand seems to have done well with the horses.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 21:12:31 GMT -5
In my opinion Eli has more to prove this year than any player on the team, we've added a superstar RB and we have excellent receivers and now a bolstered O line with much better players and now IMO its all up to Eli if he is able.... Agree this team is light years ahead of the 2013through2016 they have real running backs talent at tightened they haven't had in years decent OL would be major up grade,linebackers they are better then they have been in years,it's up to Eli now I do like the way he fits in Shurmers offense playaction was a big part of his game and letting the QB run it from the line of scrimmage in a multiple offense might be fun,shurmer is a big believer in running the ball and playaction. |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 11, 2018 21:18:19 GMT -5
Rosey this is a complicated situation or was,my honest opinion is that they wouldn't give up on their draft picks,and seeing how many of these guys careers ended when their Giants contract ended,they might have wanted these guys to grow into legit pro's,and been a little too loyal,even David Wilson was an A+ return man but a project at running back,just can't think of anyone but OBJ and Eli a Coordinator had to worry about,on defense the LBs stunk the Dline was average at best,I agree 100% on MacAdoo,but I still think they were slow to fill holes like at linebacker and tightend,and lacked talent in the most important place the trenches. Don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you that we were inferior. I just don't believe the Giants thought they were.
Jerry Reese ignored positions as you stated and John Mara bought into it.
I cannot help but question both John and Chris Mara with their running of the Giants.
Chris on the other hand seems to have done well with the horses.
Maybe they should leave the football people alone and Chris should stick to the horses he seems better suited for that,I think but can't prove this that successful GMs can look in the mirror and say,this guy we drafted was everything you would want in college but for what ever reason it's not translating lets move on and get someone who can do the job,the giants seem to let everyone play there whole rookie deal good bad or ugly. |
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Post by ocgiant on Jun 11, 2018 21:55:03 GMT -5
Fielding a team is complicated since all parts of the franchise and the team need to be pulling in the same direction over time in order for success.
It is evident over the past several years the Giants hit and miss with rebuilding the players, coaches and front office. Now this is not to say that we have a super skilled player like Beckham who got injured and Manning regardless of the line needed to find a way to make the Giants compete... looking back now it would not have made much difference.
So now this is a tell-tale year for both Manning (to extend his career) and Beckham (to earn a lucrative contract) either way they need each other to perform.
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Post by giants38 on Jun 11, 2018 21:56:56 GMT -5
Gilbride's offense played beautifully to Eli's strengths when he had protection. They didn't fix the protection when it blew up and thought sticking Eli in an offense he was ill suited for was a good solution. He played the role of a good soldier, but I am not surprised if didn't work. Things rarely do when you attempt to jam a square peg in a round hole. In a recent interview KG said that he warned about the OL for three years. |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 11, 2018 22:18:36 GMT -5
Gilbride's offense played beautifully to Eli's strengths when he had protection. They didn't fix the protection when it blew up and thought sticking Eli in an offense he was ill suited for was a good solution. He played the role of a good soldier, but I am not surprised if didn't work. Things rarely do when you attempt to jam a square peg in a round hole. In a recent interview KG said that he warned about the OL for three years. Warning is one thing. Convincing is another.
Every coach wants great players.
He obviously did not convince anyone and that IMO is on him and TC.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 22:32:23 GMT -5
He was Eli's center for years and they are good friends. He is going to be very complimentary to him in his job. Everyone expects it and it's fine with me. We saw what happens to former Giants who criticize Eli Manning. They are called traitors and are booed at the stadium. Again you spin you cover yourself. You give no credit to O'Hara or the possibility he might be right , you totally dismiss it becuase it does not fit your narrative . I've never been comfortable with excuses. Eli certainly doesn't make them. But his followers do. Sometimes guys just don't play well and that is that. I was first out of the block to say that Eli played well in the GB playoff game two years ago. I said that he and Tavarras King were the only two Giants to get off the bus. I am happy to credit him when he plays well. he was brilliant in 2011 but has, in my view steadily declined since then. Now I see no ability at all to handle a pass rush....which he WILL face in 2018, because every NFL QB does. |
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 11, 2018 22:36:49 GMT -5
Gilbride's offense played beautifully to Eli's strengths when he had protection. They didn't fix the protection when it blew up and thought sticking Eli in an offense he was ill suited for was a good solution. He played the role of a good soldier, but I am not surprised if didn't work. Things rarely do when you attempt to jam a square peg in a round hole. I have said since they hired McAdoo that KG's system was designed to address Eli's strengths and McAdoo's system was designed to mitigate his weaknesses. He had prettier stats under McAdoo but did a lot less winning. Eli has shown NO ability to be clutch in the last 4 seasons. KG's scheme enabled that. |
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Post by TCHOF on Jun 12, 2018 4:42:36 GMT -5
Again you spin you cover yourself. You give no credit to O'Hara or the possibility he might be right , you totally dismiss it becuase it does not fit your narrative . I've never been comfortable with excuses. Eli certainly doesn't make them. But his followers do. Sometimes guys just don't play well and that is that. I was first out of the block to say that Eli played well in the GB playoff game two years ago. I said that he and Tavarras King were the only two Giants to get off the bus. I am happy to credit him when he plays well. he was brilliant in 2011 but has, in my view steadily declined since then. Now I see no ability at all to handle a pass rush....which he WILL face in 2018, because every NFL QB does. You love excuses when the subject turns to Reese .... |
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Post by Waybackfan on Jun 12, 2018 5:37:19 GMT -5
Do you agree that if a QB has a running back that can't run,receivers that can't catch and offensive linemen that can't block ...that he will look "crappy"? Yes, unless he can run around like a chicken. |
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Post by Waybackfan on Jun 12, 2018 5:39:27 GMT -5
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Post by TEM on Jun 12, 2018 6:10:40 GMT -5
That is what the I can not stand the Giants Qb fan club does. When the QB loses it is all on the QB , When he wins it is everyone around him. It is an a debate that sets themselves up to win . It is always a team win and only a QB loss. Welcome to the world of Giants MB As TC would say it is always team first and the giants had a long slow death from contender to doormat thats how it goes when a teams talent gets drained to the point of no return,as the old saying goes the QB and coach get to much credit when they lose and the same goes for when they win,the last 5-6 years you could have brought Brady or big Ben in here they would have probably went off and spoke up about the lack of talent, look at ben he has a great supporting cast the best receiver in the game and the best running back in the game,it's about the team around the main man otherwise as Ohara put it your just waisting that guys time. I agree . You cant make cake out of crap. |
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 12, 2018 6:42:25 GMT -5
I've never been comfortable with excuses. Eli certainly doesn't make them. But his followers do. Sometimes guys just don't play well and that is that. I was first out of the block to say that Eli played well in the GB playoff game two years ago. I said that he and Tavarras King were the only two Giants to get off the bus. I am happy to credit him when he plays well. he was brilliant in 2011 but has, in my view steadily declined since then. Now I see no ability at all to handle a pass rush....which he WILL face in 2018, because every NFL QB does. You love excuses when the subject turns to Reese .... Reese sucked at evaluating O line. I had no problem with him being let go. I do appreciate two SB's though and I'm not going to villainize him like folks seem to be determined to do. |
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 12, 2018 6:43:47 GMT -5
I've never been comfortable with excuses. Eli certainly doesn't make them. But his followers do. Sometimes guys just don't play well and that is that. I was first out of the block to say that Eli played well in the GB playoff game two years ago. I said that he and Tavarras King were the only two Giants to get off the bus. I am happy to credit him when he plays well. he was brilliant in 2011 but has, in my view steadily declined since then. Now I see no ability at all to handle a pass rush....which he WILL face in 2018, because every NFL QB does. Yet that is what you do. Simply put they are explanations of what happen,again they go against your opinion so to you they are excuses to you, so you can justify your narrative. So am I to understand that you know more about football than Sean O'Hara, you know more about the goings on of the NYG than he does ? I apologize ,I really don't mean to come across as combative and if I do I am sorry,I just honestly don't understand the hatred for Eli and why I am sure you don't hate the man, you seem to not recognize the exactly depth of the total team collapse and "perfect storm" situation he faced last year. I am saying that others with way more information then I or you did, which to me was shown in the out pouring of support for him from just not fans but around the league ..past and present player executives and such. Again I apologize for the rant.  I like Eli just fine. But I AM critical of his play. That isn't "hate". |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 12, 2018 10:00:23 GMT -5
As TC would say it is always team first and the giants had a long slow death from contender to doormat thats how it goes when a teams talent gets drained to the point of no return,as the old saying goes the QB and coach get to much credit when they lose and the same goes for when they win,the last 5-6 years you could have brought Brady or big Ben in here they would have probably went off and spoke up about the lack of talent, look at ben he has a great supporting cast the best receiver in the game and the best running back in the game,it's about the team around the main man otherwise as Ohara put it your just waisting that guys time. I agree . You cant make cake out of crap. Exactly lol,heres to not wasting anymore of anyones career wether it is Eli's or Webbs or Lauletta |
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 12, 2018 10:03:51 GMT -5
No QB would have done anything with that OL, running game and coach.
You could have just said "coach" and I would have been fine.  His offense was about as simple as it gets,think some high school defensive coordinators could have out schemed him. |
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 12, 2018 10:07:45 GMT -5
Being critical is not hate you're right but not addressing all of the factions that contribute to the play being criticized is not honest criticism. To complain about Eli's play is legit if and only if you all so acknowledge the bad play of the O line , running backs and receivers and since we are talking last year the coaching staff and the Defense and addressing injuries. As I said...I hate excuses. |
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 12, 2018 10:12:36 GMT -5
Yet that is what you do. Simply put they are explanations of what happen,again they go against your opinion so to you they are excuses to you, so you can justify your narrative. So am I to understand that you know more about football than Sean O'Hara, you know more about the goings on of the NYG than he does ? I apologize ,I really don't mean to come across as combative and if I do I am sorry,I just honestly don't understand the hatred for Eli and why I am sure you don't hate the man, you seem to not recognize the exactly depth of the total team collapse and "perfect storm" situation he faced last year. I am saying that others with way more information then I or you did, which to me was shown in the out pouring of support for him from just not fans but around the league ..past and present player executives and such. Again I apologize for the rant. I like Eli just fine. But I AM critical of his play. That isn't "hate". In that case, how does "Four More Years!" sound? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 10:25:42 GMT -5
Now that most have established the O-line as being the main issue...
Did the Giants make the wrong choice of Beckham instead of Martin???
I was hoping for Martin but never heard of Odell at the time..
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Post by jimmieray on Jun 12, 2018 10:33:07 GMT -5
Now that most have established the O-line as being the main issue... Did the Giants make the wrong choice of Beckham instead of Martin??? I was hoping for Martin but never heard of Odell at the time.. Although one single lineman most likely would not have eased the protection issue for Manning the past several seasons, it would seem obvious he would choose having line talent in front of him, over receiving personnel. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 11:29:26 GMT -5
Now that most have established the O-line as being the main issue... Did the Giants make the wrong choice of Beckham instead of Martin??? I was hoping for Martin but never heard of Odell at the time.. Martin who,look back at his career and then look back at Odell's, now looking forward which has the brighter upside? Excellent question and I feel the jury is still out.. For me I've been screaming to build the o-line this whole decade and just like this year I would've rather had more o-line help than 1 RB... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2018 11:32:27 GMT -5
Now that most have established the O-line as being the main issue... Did the Giants make the wrong choice of Beckham instead of Martin??? I was hoping for Martin but never heard of Odell at the time.. I don't think anyone said the O line was the only problem or main issue ,just one of many. Martin who? Whoever he is look at his career so far and then Odell's and look and see which one has the brighter upside. Are you ok??? You basically asked me the same question twice... Martin is the 4 time all pro guard that's playing for the Cowboys.. That draft was only 4 years ago.. |
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Post by TCHOF on Jun 12, 2018 11:33:11 GMT -5
As I said...I hate excuses. ........then stop making them up by blaming one person for all the problems the Giants had last year. Haven’t seen a single Giants fan do that. That’s just the way some take any criticism of Eli. |
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Post by Parademon1 on Jun 12, 2018 11:33:22 GMT -5
Stats don't lie, I'm a huge proponent of analyzing sports stats & no matter how some people try & spin it, the stats just don't lie. Since 2013, the NY football Giants have had an atrocious OL, no good RBs & up until last yr, no TEs. Yet all the blame goes right to Eli for this? How can he elevate the play around him when the talent level of those around him was mediocre to just plain awful. Name me the the OLmen & RBs that made the pro bowl in the past 5 yrs?
Neither Brady nor AR would have made this team better than 8-8 during the past few yrs. Both those QBs woulda been screaming at their owner/GM/HC to surround them with talented players at every offensive position possible. Eli's problem is that he has never been a vocal field General & plays the meek role of the Private 1st class & goes along with the plan of the day. Has Eli had the OL that Brady & big Ben have had these past 5yrs? Has Eli had the RBs that those QBs have had since 2012? How bout TEs? The only thing Eli has had is the WRs, that's not enough to win 8 games let alone divisions let alone a playoff game. 2016 being the exception, when has Eli had the defenses that Brady/Ben have had? But yep, it's all Eli's fault that the team has missed the playoffs 5 of the past 6yrs.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 12, 2018 11:39:16 GMT -5
As I said...I hate excuses. ........then stop making them up by blaming one person for all the problems the Giants had last year. If you think I am, or ever have blamed Eli Manning for our poor performance over the past 5 years you need to read a little more. because I haven't, nor do I blame Eli exclusively or even more than anyone else. You guys interpret criticism of a player as blaming them for all the problems on the team? really? |
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Post by NAVY2323(ret) on Jun 12, 2018 11:56:03 GMT -5
I am excited to see Eli this season, as far as this board goes it could do with a little less of the same old rhetoric from all parties involved. Let's just see what he has left in the tank this season. Plenty of past blame to go around, but it's all spilled milk at this point. These former players aren't helping anything by defending him like avid fan boys, that's just my two cents.
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Post by Morehead State on Jun 12, 2018 12:01:06 GMT -5
I am excited to see Eli this season, as far as this board goes it could do with a little less of the same old rhetoric from all parties involved. Let's just see what he has left in the tank this season. Plenty of past blame to go around, but it's all spilled milk at this point. These former players aren't helping anything by defending him like avid fan boys, that's just my two cents. Hater....... |
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Post by Roosevelt on Jun 12, 2018 12:36:42 GMT -5
I am excited to see Eli this season, as far as this board goes it could do with a little less of the same old rhetoric from all parties involved. Let's just see what he has left in the tank this season. Plenty of past blame to go around, but it's all spilled milk at this point. These former players aren't helping anything by defending him like avid fan boys, that's just my two cents.
I don't think we could have asked for a better off season coming off that cluster**** we had the last year.
It was obvious that Eli was incapable of doing anything in that offense, and I'm obviously excited about all the changes that have been made. Word is Eli has been throwing down field more during practice and that my friend is music to my ears. It allows me to believe that Shurmur/Shula will play to Eli's strengths unlike the buffoon with the Denny's menu.
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