Hes no "captain of the D" type, like an Antonio Pierce
not saying he's a pierce level guy but hes not drifting about the field with no clue. the guy is allegedly pretty sharp and helps direct the D is all im saying
Holy crap is there a lower bar than Pierce level guy? Was Ogletree a Pierce level guy? Y'know make an occasional great play after not making many, many plays but it doesn't matter due to that coach on the field designation that makes it all right. That's a good gig.
science is largely subjective, isn't it? I may have missed that class.
You're older that dirt like me, right?
When I see threads like this I think of that Foghorn leghorn cartoon, where he hides in a root cellar and the nerdy chicken does some calculations and digs a hole in the yard and finds Foghorn there...numbers don't lie.
In some states, a rapist can now select the mother of his child.
it is just really hard to fathom how you can lead the NFL in tackles yet be critical how many tackles he has.
Well PFF suggests he makes a lot of STOPS...or meaningful tackles.
Most every Packer fan and writer/analyst suggests he his overrated in tackles by watching him
I mean I have not seen him play much. But with all the missed tackles that we have been seeing lately, I am expecting him to not miss tackles left and right. I'll be happy with that for now at least.
For example, Antoine Bethea led us in tackles last year with 110.
How is that overrated? Would you knock Bethea for making tackles? No, he sucked at coverage but no one would say he wasn't good at getting tackles.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
Don't let anyone ruin your day. It's your day. Ruin it yourself.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know.
Context is always important but I would never knock a guy for it. It's the same thing with INTs. If a LB has 9 INTs but all of them were tipped at the LOS would you knock the LB for it? Doubtful. The same is true with tackles.
Sorry man maybe I don't get what you mean. What do you need to know about Martinez' tackles?
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
Don't let anyone ruin your day. It's your day. Ruin it yourself.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
I think we both agree on Martinez. He isn't a stud LB, IMO you must do more than just tackle (TFL, pressures, sacks, pass defense) to be a stud. He is a good tackler though and will most likely lead us in tackles. I don't need to know anything more about his tackles to know he is a guy that can make tackles in this league.
Sorry maybe I don't get what you mean but tackles are overrated and you need to know more. What would knowing more prove?
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
I got you. I think we are agreeing that it takes more than just tackles to make a complete stud LB. I don't need to see how he got his tackles to tell you that though. That was my only point.
Also changed my response after you changed yours but not before you seen mine lol.
How is that overrated? Would you knock Bethea for making tackles? No, he sucked at coverage but no one would say he wasn't good at getting tackles.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
Truth be told...excellent post.
That's my issue, the way stats are now they are so subjective to failure in actual play/value...and somebody simply suggesting he leads us in tackles, or somebody in sacks, or picks or TD's means really nothing without the as you suggest, context of each stat...our tackle leader was just cut....and was making a fair lower salary....that should tell you at least the Giants are on board with the story behind the tackles.
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
I got you. I think we are agreeing that it takes more than just tackles to make a complete stud LB. I don't need to see how he got his tackles to tell you that though. That was my only point.
Also changed my response after you changed yours but not before you seen mine lol.
Well I brought up a defensive back in Bethea. If he has a lot of tackles, maybe it's the Eli Apple syndrome where he gets tackles because he gets picked on because he cant cover. So the ball goes his way, increasing tackles. Or for a LB, maybe it due to the front 4 being weak and bullied by OLinemen and the RB just runs through the first line of defense with ease to the LB, padding his stats. Not necessarily a negative but over valuing the tackle stat. Needing context.
Don't let anyone ruin your day. It's your day. Ruin it yourself.
Well I brought up a defensive back in Bethea. If he has a lot of tackles, maybe it's the Eli Apple syndrome where he gets tackles because he gets picked on because he cant cover. So the ball goes his way, increasing tackles. Or for a LB, maybe it due to the front 4 being weak and bullied by OLinemen and the RB just runs through the first line of defense with ease to the LB, padding his stats. Not necessarily a negative but over valuing the tackle stat. Needing context.
With a DB if he can't cover he has to go. That's his first job.
With the LB I am 100% ok with a LB that racks up tackles because the DL can't stop anyone. That's their #1 job IMO. Even the great DL are not leading the league in tackles because their job is to eat up the blockers (top DL is 58th in tackles). Our problem last year was our LBs could not tackle. I would be concerned if the guy got a lot of assists and not solo tackles (but that's a different stat). KJ Wright had 132 tackles, only 67 solo though. Shows good hustle, but really just cleaning up.
I agree though a LB that "just" gets tackles can't be considered a top tier LB. He has to be great in coverage and/or rush the passer as well. I don't think how he got his tackles would change that.
science is largely subjective, isn't it? I may have missed that class.
You're older that dirt like me, right?
When I see threads like this I think of that Foghorn leghorn cartoon, where he hides in a root cellar and the nerdy chicken does some calculations and digs a hole in the yard and finds Foghorn there...numbers don't lie.
Yup, I am and that always worked because that nerdy chicken had all the science on this side.
Context is always important but I would never knock a guy for it. It's the same thing with INTs. If a LB has 9 INTs but all of them were tipped at the LOS would you knock the LB for it? Doubtful. The same is true with tackles.
Sorry man maybe I don't get what you mean. What do you need to know about Martinez' tackles?
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
Connelly is our best LBer.
Cant wait for everyone see a guy making $950k outplay a guy that makes $10m.
How is that overrated? Would you knock Bethea for making tackles? No, he sucked at coverage but no one would say he wasn't good at getting tackles.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
Why are we acting like watching every play creates some sort of establishable value? That seems about the absolute worst place to stop questioning the logic.
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
Connelly is our best LBer.
Cant wait for everyone see a guy making $950k outplay a guy that makes $10m.
Not right now he isnt. Can he be? Sure. But right now it's all projection off a bad ACL injury.
Don't let anyone ruin your day. It's your day. Ruin it yourself.
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
Why are we acting like watching every play creates some sort of establishable value? That seems about the absolute worst place to stop questioning the logic.
Is not watching every play better at evaluating him? Maybe a youtube hightlight reel will suffice?
We know more about Giants players because we watch every game. We dont know as much about a player on the Packers because we dont watch every game. Maybe just snippets and stats.
Don't let anyone ruin your day. It's your day. Ruin it yourself.
Woah slow down. I didnt knock Martinez for his tackles. At all. Like I said I like Martinez. He is probably now our best LB. I believe he will lead the team in tackles.
I was saying tackles CAN be overrated. You cant just look at tackles.
Connelly is our best LBer.
Cant wait for everyone see a guy making $950k outplay a guy that makes $10m.
He will. If given the opportunity, but he's coming off of an ACL
This FO has no ability to evaluate ILB's. Its like their building a roster in 1980.
Edge? OT? Who needs em.
Lets just sign interior DL who cant pass rush and ILB's that can't really pass cover. Sounds great!
What I'm saying is it's only part of a story. Why was he making so many tackles? Or why did he have the opportunity in the first place? No context it's hard to know. It doesnt make him better or worse unless you know. Did the people commenting on Blake watch his every play to know? I certainly didnt. I do like Blake though but he isnt a stud LB by any means. He will most likely lead us in tackles in 2020 though
Truth be told...excellent post.
That's my issue, the way stats are now they are so subjective to failure in actual play/value...and somebody simply suggesting he leads us in tackles, or somebody in sacks, or picks or TD's means really nothing without the as you suggest, context of each stat...our tackle leader was just cut....and was making a fair lower salary....that should tell you at least the Giants are on board with the story behind the tackles.
I agree with all of this; where I diverge is that I do not believe in solving subjectivity by adding more subjectivity to it.
Cant wait for everyone see a guy making $950k outplay a guy that makes $10m.
I bet everyone on this site hopes you're right. We will be pretty decent if Connelly can outplay Martinez. Connelly can play for sure, I just worry about him recovering.
That's my issue, the way stats are now they are so subjective to failure in actual play/value...and somebody simply suggesting he leads us in tackles, or somebody in sacks, or picks or TD's means really nothing without the as you suggest, context of each stat...our tackle leader was just cut....and was making a fair lower salary....that should tell you at least the Giants are on board with the story behind the tackles.
I agree with all of this; where I diverge is that I do not believe in solving subjectivity by adding more subjectivity to it.
its pretty objective that this FO's plan for ILB has failed over the past few years.
They're just doubling down on the same flaws in logic. Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar organization subjects itself to these decisions.
Its great we have 'professionals' leading the way.
I agree with all of this; where I diverge is that I do not believe in solving subjectivity by adding more subjectivity to it.
its pretty objective that this FO's plan for ILB has failed over the past few years.
They're just doubling down on the same flaws in logic. Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar organization subjects itself to these decisions.
Its great we have 'professionals' leading the way.
Well it's March 26th so maybe we can wait a little bit before we roast their plan. We needed some additional pass rush help, they signed Fackrell. Our LBs last year couldn't tackle other than Mayo, we signed Martinez. They are filling needs. We absolutely still need a LB that can cover (our biggest need on D IMO). So lets see what happens. There are more than a couple in the draft that can cover. Give it time and have faith.
If we don't add another LB I'll be right on the ledge with you.