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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:47:57 GMT -5
its pretty objective that this FO's plan for ILB has failed over the past few years. They're just doubling down on the same flaws in logic. Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar organization subjects itself to these decisions. Its great we have 'professionals' leading the way. Well it's March 26th so maybe we can wait a little bit before we roast their plan. We needed some additional pass rush help, they signed Fackrell. Our LBs last year couldn't tackle other than Mayo, we signed Martinez. They are filling needs. We absolutely still need a LB that can cover (our biggest need on D IMO). So lets see what happens. There are more than a couple in the draft that can cover. Give it time and have faith.
If we don't add another LB I'll be right on the ledge with you.
Mayo played better on tape than Martinez last year in my opinion. If they're both on the field it will be easy for OC's to attack them all day. Not smart to have two player that essentially have the exact same skill-set. The roster construction of this team is absolutely mind boggling. We literally just signed another 2-down interior DL. You can't make this up
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:48:42 GMT -5
The game has changed in many orders of magnitude since the 80's. In fact, offences have hanged in many orders of magnitude since our last SB in 2011. 1980's were 40 years ago. Off ball LB's aren't even playing much these days, the ones that DO play NEED to be able to cover in this day and age Khalil Mack is the highest paid LB in the league. Anyone think if we dropped a prime LT on the field today he could not do what Mack does?
I agree with you about the changing of the league, I just think using our 1980s LBs to show that point was a fatal flaw.
LT & Mack are EDGE. Im referring to off-ball LB's. In that decade only having big run stuffing off-ball LB's made sense. It doesn't in 2020
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 26, 2020 17:49:06 GMT -5
Hey! Don't sell the team short, this FO has failed at LB for decades. And this board reminds them every April.
thegiantsboard.com: "OMG we have not taken a LB in the 1st since 1984....grrr wtf imgrates"
also thegiantsboard.com: "OMG they want to take a LB this year, wtf morons"
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:51:59 GMT -5
its pretty objective that this FO's plan for ILB has failed over the past few years. They're just doubling down on the same flaws in logic. Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar organization subjects itself to these decisions. Its great we have 'professionals' leading the way. Hey! Don't sell the team short, this FO has failed at LB for decades. Correct. But you can hide flaws in LB with excellent coverage and Edge pressure. Our previous FO basically admitted that this was the focus.. and it worked. We won 2 SBs. This have tried to build a secondary, to be fair. However, they've done absolutely.... NOTHING at edge. You dont win games without edge pressure.
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 26, 2020 17:52:19 GMT -5
Mayo played better on tape than Martinez last year in my opinion. If they're both on the field it will be easy for OC's to attack them all day. Not smart to have two player that essentially have the exact same skill-set. The roster construction of this team is absolutely mind boggling. We literally just signed another 2-down interior DL. You can't make this up Man take a chill pill. We literally just signed a guy that probably won't make our roster and will have zero effect on anything other than being a body in camp.
As for the LBs, you are right. Mayo/Martinez are the same type. Xman/Carter/Fackrell are the same type. This is called depth and it's some we really need around here. I'm right there with you if we don't draft/sign a LB that can cover (unless these coaches pull some voodoo shit). This is not a finished product.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:52:44 GMT -5
1980's were 40 years ago. Off ball LB's aren't even playing much these days, the ones that DO play NEED to be able to cover in this day and age No the game hasn't really changed . You need to stop who ever has the ball ,simple concept really . Teams still run , teams still pass ............NY Giants Lbers in the 80's could still out play any LBer on the team(maybe the league) right now back in their prime. uh. Okay.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:55:07 GMT -5
Mayo played better on tape than Martinez last year in my opinion. If they're both on the field it will be easy for OC's to attack them all day. Not smart to have two player that essentially have the exact same skill-set. The roster construction of this team is absolutely mind boggling. We literally just signed another 2-down interior DL. You can't make this up Man take a chill pill. We literally just signed a guy that probably won't make our roster and will have zero effect on anything other than being a body in camp.
As for the LBs, you are right. Mayo/Martinez are the same type. Xman/Carter/Fackrell are the same type. This is called depth and it's some we really need around here. I'm right there with you if we don't draft/sign a LB that can cover (unless these coaches pull some voodoo shit). This is not a finished product.
So when someone makes a point you have nothing for.. you offer chill? Im actually quite chilled and getting a good laugh at how out of touch this fan base is with how football works. Listen. I liked the Fackrell signing. Great value. Im not a DG hater, every move of his that I said would be bad (big exception being D. Jones) has been.. bad. We dont need depth at 2-down LBs. Heck, they're almost becoming 1-down LBs. You dont give that kind of guy $30MM The mayo signing was fine, good value. This move was redundant and out of touch IMO. But lets see
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:58:04 GMT -5
.....................great retort. Educate yourself. Learn what the difference is between an EDGE and an off-ball LB. Simply saying WE NEED LBers is just simple-minded. Until you can discern the difference any retort to you is a bit of waste of time if im being completelyhonest.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:59:08 GMT -5
Khalil Mack is the highest paid LB in the league. Anyone think if we dropped a prime LT on the field today he could not do what Mack does?
I agree with you about the changing of the league, I just think using our 1980s LBs to show that point was a fatal flaw.
As BB said please.,.....this is "Lawrence Taylor " we are talking about ,.......next question? Perfect. Looks like you got a plan!
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 17:59:28 GMT -5
And this board reminds them every April.
thegiantsboard.com: "OMG we have not taken a LB in the 1st since 1984....grrr wtf imgrates"
also thegiantsboard.com: "OMG they want to take a LB this year, wtf morons"
As well we should ...................it's been an ignored position. which position? Apply what you should be learning now.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 18:07:22 GMT -5
Educate yourself. Learn what the difference is between an EDGE and an off-ball LB. Simply saying WE NEED LBers is just simple-minded. Until you can discern the difference any retort to you is a bit of waste of time if im being completelyhonest. You used the 1980 LBers as the example ,.............there was no "edge rusher position" ,.......DE or Outside Lber. They used real terms then not made up positions to sound important. "Real term" Wait, so the term edge defender is made-up . And "lber" means everything not on the DL or secondary. All must function the same too, huh? Got it . Go home you're drunk. Hope social distancing is a real term in your world.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 18:09:00 GMT -5
Perfect. Looks like you got a plan! .......again you and you retorts ,amazing. Im sure anyone who knows the difference between and Edge and off-ball LB will find your posts fantastic. I mean, not for the reason that you'd like to think. But amazing nonetheless.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 18:13:13 GMT -5
Also, since we have Parcell's experts here.
Can anyone tell me which teams in the NFL currently use his version of 3-4 defence? Then let me know how/why the current day 3-4 league wide are.. potentially different. I mean, if it is at all. Should be easy, feel free to use DL techniques if you deem them real and/or worthy to help support your thesis.
(Im looking at you Big Red)
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 26, 2020 18:22:29 GMT -5
Well it's March 26th so maybe we can wait a little bit before we roast their plan. We needed some additional pass rush help, they signed Fackrell. Our LBs last year couldn't tackle other than Mayo, we signed Martinez. They are filling needs. We absolutely still need a LB that can cover (our biggest need on D IMO). So lets see what happens. There are more than a couple in the draft that can cover. Give it time and have faith.
If we don't add another LB I'll be right on the ledge with you.
Mayo played better on tape than Martinez last year in my opinion. If they're both on the field it will be easy for OC's to attack them all day. Not smart to have two player that essentially have the exact same skill-set. The roster construction of this team is absolutely mind boggling. We literally just signed another 2-down interior DL. You can't make this up How would you feel about or LB’s if we added Simmons to the mix?
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 18:24:46 GMT -5
Mayo played better on tape than Martinez last year in my opinion. If they're both on the field it will be easy for OC's to attack them all day. Not smart to have two player that essentially have the exact same skill-set. The roster construction of this team is absolutely mind boggling. We literally just signed another 2-down interior DL. You can't make this up How would you feel about or LB’s if we added Simmons to the mix? Would absolutely love it. He's a faster Brian Urlacher IMO. Changes what we can do on defence. He can also play nickle CB/SS if needed. Heck we can run cover 2 w/ him patrolling the middle. We can line up in a Nickle all game and it can essentially act like a Dime coverage. Which is amazing and.. unique. Once in a lifetime type player IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 18:31:59 GMT -5
Truth be told...excellent post. That's my issue, the way stats are now they are so subjective to failure in actual play/value...and somebody simply suggesting he leads us in tackles, or somebody in sacks, or picks or TD's means really nothing without the as you suggest, context of each stat...our tackle leader was just cut....and was making a fair lower salary....that should tell you at least the Giants are on board with the story behind the tackles. I agree with all of this; where I diverge is that I do not believe in solving subjectivity by adding more subjectivity to it. Respect your opinion, with subjectivity. I'm personally at ease in equanimity in how I deal with my subjective subjectivity of advanced subjective stats. Now, gonna get back to my kinetic energy values tackle statistic ....
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 26, 2020 18:33:05 GMT -5
Man take a chill pill. We literally just signed a guy that probably won't make our roster and will have zero effect on anything other than being a body in camp.
As for the LBs, you are right. Mayo/Martinez are the same type. Xman/Carter/Fackrell are the same type. This is called depth and it's some we really need around here. I'm right there with you if we don't draft/sign a LB that can cover (unless these coaches pull some voodoo shit). This is not a finished product.
So when someone makes a point you have nothing for.. you offer chill? Im actually quite chilled and getting a good laugh at how out of touch this fan base is with how football works. Listen. I liked the Fackrell signing. Great value. Im not a DG hater, every move of his that I said would be bad (big exception being D. Jones) has been.. bad. We dont need depth at 2-down LBs. Heck, they're almost becoming 1-down LBs. You dont give that kind of guy $30MM The mayo signing was fine, good value. This move was redundant and out of touch IMO. But lets see My chill comment was because in a thread about LBs we were discussing LBs and suddenly you went off on the fact we signed a camp fodder DL. I think I responded to the rest of your points afterward.
Of course we need depth at every LB spot. All depth signings are redundant, that is the point. Do you not feel better with Martinez starting being backed up by Mayo instead of Mayo starting being backed up by Devante Downs? I like Connelly a lot but he is coming off a major knee injury and we have no clue how he will be. What if he can go early in the year? We start Tauaefa?
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 26, 2020 18:34:33 GMT -5
Would absolutely love it. He's a faster Brian Urlacher IMO. Changes what we can do on defence. He can also play nickle CB/SS if needed. Heck we can run cover 2 w/ him patrolling the middle. We can line up in a Nickle all game and it can essentially act like a Dime coverage. Which is amazing and.. unique. Once in a lifetime type player IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2020 18:39:23 GMT -5
its pretty objective that this FO's plan for ILB has failed over the past few years. They're just doubling down on the same flaws in logic. Hard to believe a multi-billion dollar organization subjects itself to these decisions. Its great we have 'professionals' leading the way. Hey! Don't sell the team short, this FO has failed at LB for decades. Absolutely, and when we went back to 3-4, there was no excuse not to focus on it...but even if we went all resource at the 4, no guarantee we would have succeeded. This team has been throwing money and resources at fails for as you say, a long time...case in point? OL... We've sort of been "trying" to fix the OL for a while now, and it's been so bad, the fan base is still shell shocked and gun shy of taking a top 10 tackle ...all due to the Flower fiasco. How many failures at the OL, from drafting to the DG free agents are we going to accept?...this is the year we simply have to roll the dice and gamble, with subjective stats, and load up in the draft...
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Post by TCHOF on Mar 26, 2020 19:24:33 GMT -5
How would you feel about or LB’s if we added Simmons to the mix? Would absolutely love it. He's a faster Brian Urlacher IMO. Changes what we can do on defence. He can also play nickle CB/SS if needed. Heck we can run cover 2 w/ him patrolling the middle. We can line up in a Nickle all game and it can essentially act like a Dime coverage. Which is amazing and.. unique. Once in a lifetime type player IMO. Maybe the plan was to add Martinez and Simmons??? Who knows? Sort of taking a wait and see approach to these FA moves, the new staff, etc.
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Post by thetruth on Mar 26, 2020 21:52:47 GMT -5
Would absolutely love it. He's a faster Brian Urlacher IMO. Changes what we can do on defence. He can also play nickle CB/SS if needed. Heck we can run cover 2 w/ him patrolling the middle. We can line up in a Nickle all game and it can essentially act like a Dime coverage. Which is amazing and.. unique. Once in a lifetime type player IMO. Maybe the plan was to add Martinez and Simmons??? Who knows? Sort of taking a wait and see approach to these FA moves, the new staff, etc. I thought Mayo was fine. I dont agree at all with the signing of Martinez offers the same skillset at a $10M/y price tag. Its value, for me. Not to mention, I think we should be wise and take a OT at #4 or even if we drop down a few picks. Good OT's are unicorns in this league and add more to W/L's than Off-Ball LBs. Sp, If we take an OT with the first we will not likely able to have a player on this roster that can cover the middle of the field, as Simmons. That with below average pass rush is a bad, bad sign. Signing a Cory Littleton or anyone who shown good cover skills over their careers would have been preferable. Again, if the plan is to draft Simmons than it kind of makes sense. If we take OT im not sure what the plan was.
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 26, 2020 22:42:26 GMT -5
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Post by DandyDon on Mar 26, 2020 22:43:27 GMT -5
Maybe the plan was to add Martinez and Simmons??? Who knows? Sort of taking a wait and see approach to these FA moves, the new staff, etc. I thought Mayo was fine. I dont agree at all with the signing of Martinez offers the same skillset at a $10M/y price tag. Its value, for me. Not to mention, I think we should be wise and take a OT at #4 or even if we drop down a few picks. Good OT's are unicorns in this league and add more to W/L's than Off-Ball LBs. Sp, If we take an OT with the first we will not likely able to have a player on this roster that can cover the middle of the field, as Simmons. That with below average pass rush is a bad, bad sign. Signing a Cory Littleton or anyone who shown good cover skills over their careers would have been preferable. Again, if the plan is to draft Simmons than it kind of makes sense. If we take OT im not sure what the plan was. Why dont you have a job in the NFL?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 6:00:48 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2020 7:13:23 GMT -5
I thought Mayo was fine. I dont agree at all with the signing of Martinez offers the same skillset at a $10M/y price tag. Its value, for me. Not to mention, I think we should be wise and take a OT at #4 or even if we drop down a few picks. Good OT's are unicorns in this league and add more to W/L's than Off-Ball LBs. Sp, If we take an OT with the first we will not likely able to have a player on this roster that can cover the middle of the field, as Simmons. That with below average pass rush is a bad, bad sign. Signing a Cory Littleton or anyone who shown good cover skills over their careers would have been preferable. Again, if the plan is to draft Simmons than it kind of makes sense. If we take OT im not sure what the plan was. Why dont you have a job in the NFL? Sorry wrong reply Nice point
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 28, 2020 8:59:13 GMT -5
I thought Mayo was fine. I dont agree at all with the signing of Martinez offers the same skillset at a $10M/y price tag. Its value, for me. Not to mention, I think we should be wise and take a OT at #4 or even if we drop down a few picks. Good OT's are unicorns in this league and add more to W/L's than Off-Ball LBs. Sp, If we take an OT with the first we will not likely able to have a player on this roster that can cover the middle of the field, as Simmons. That with below average pass rush is a bad, bad sign. Signing a Cory Littleton or anyone who shown good cover skills over their careers would have been preferable. Again, if the plan is to draft Simmons than it kind of makes sense. If we take OT im not sure what the plan was. It's possible that we wanted Littleton or Schobert to help fix up our LBs not being able to cover issue but when we couldn't sign one of them we decided to fix our other LB issue, then being trash at tackling last year (Mayo the exception). I think we all agree we need better coverage from our LBs, but we will have to see what happens. Maybe Judge/Graham are bringing some magic Pats recipe to fix that issue.
Also is there any actual proof that good OTs add more Ws than LBs? In addition is there any proof that those OTs must come from round 1? Just checking.
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Post by rain on Mar 28, 2020 9:18:54 GMT -5
I Think if H/C, D/C wanted him, Than im on board. I think they know much more than message board posters. Espec. players worth. IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2020 9:41:36 GMT -5
I thought Mayo was fine. I dont agree at all with the signing of Martinez offers the same skillset at a $10M/y price tag. Its value, for me. Not to mention, I think we should be wise and take a OT at #4 or even if we drop down a few picks. Good OT's are unicorns in this league and add more to W/L's than Off-Ball LBs. Sp, If we take an OT with the first we will not likely able to have a player on this roster that can cover the middle of the field, as Simmons. That with below average pass rush is a bad, bad sign. Signing a Cory Littleton or anyone who shown good cover skills over their careers would have been preferable. Again, if the plan is to draft Simmons than it kind of makes sense. If we take OT im not sure what the plan was. It's possible that we wanted Littleton or Schobert to help fix up our LBs not being able to cover issue but when we couldn't sign one of them we decided to fix our other LB issue, then being trash at tackling last year (Mayo the exception). I think we all agree we need better coverage from our LBs, but we will have to see what happens. Maybe Judge/Graham are bringing some magic Pats recipe to fix that issue.
Also is there any actual proof that good OTs add more Ws than LBs? In addition is there any proof that those OTs must come from round 1? Just checking.
I don’t know why everyone is hating on Martinez. The guy is an absolute Beast. 2019 155 Tackles 2018 144 Tackles 2017 144 Tackles Is it just his coverage skills that are being questioned? He has a High Football IQ I have read. He was the Defensive Signal caller and was responsible for making all the adjustments. He was continually rearranging fronts, communicating with the secondary, and audibling plays to the offenses’ actions. Is Schobert and Littleton better???? Maybe yeah. Maybe not. Perhaps even we couldn’t get those two sooo went with who we could get which finally gets to my point. Martinez is MUCH better then Ogletree. The goal of our team is to always upgrade players which is exactly what we did. Another point is players perform differently under different DCs. I am going to take a wait and see approach
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Post by IrishMike on Mar 28, 2020 9:48:22 GMT -5
I don’t know why everyone is hating on Martinez. They guy is an absolute Beast. 2019 155 Tackles 2018 144 Tackles 2017 144 Tackles Is it just his coverage skills that are being questioned? He has a High Football IQ I have read. He was the Defensive Signal caller and was responsible for making all the adjustments. He was continually rearranging fronts, communicating with the secondary, and audibling plays to the offenses’ actions. Is Schobert and Littleton better???? Maybe yeah. Maybe not. Perhaps even we could get those two sooo went with who we could get which finally gets to my point. Martinez is MUCH better then Ogletree. The goal of our team is to always upgrade players which is exactly what we did. Another point is players perform differently under different DCs. I am going to take a wait and see approach I don't know why either. Most people here seem to like the signing. A small "noisy" few are trying to tear the signing up. One group is upset he isn't a coverage LB, which is true, but we need more than just coverage LBs. We need guys exactly like you described Martinez. Other people just hate anything DG does and hide behind "advance PFF stats" as to why they hate Martinez. Apparently they didn't like where on the field he made his tackles lmao.
You nailed it on the head though. The goal in free agency is to upgrade as much as possible. Martinez is an upgrade over OTree, while still bringing the leadership that Tree brough; he is an upgrade over Mayo (who I'm a big fan of) and he could be an upgrade over post knee surgery Connelly. I agree with the wait and see approach. Don't lose faith I think many more people like the signing than hate it.
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Post by GameTime on Mar 28, 2020 10:05:55 GMT -5
Martinez is a good signing for sure. Debate it Dissect it Blah blah blah about it all day...
Bottom line its a good signing......
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