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Post by giantlegacy on May 22, 2021 8:53:59 GMT -5
He wasn't anything special until he got to us. Anyway, a little beside the point. I think myself and a couple others believe that paying a running back top dollar on a 2nd contract hurts your team more than it helps. If you don't agree with that, that's OK, just different philosophies. In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I think he was falling out of favor in Pittsburgh (and this was also when they started their economical approach to outside WRs.. I mean as great as plax was we all seem to forget he really didn't run the most precise routes and had a had habit of guessing on his option routes.. Also people forget that was Big Ben's first year and he was basicly old school brought along the first few years as a game manager (because having 7 year rookie deals you can still bring a qb along slowly and build the rest of the team).. So plax's numbers were indeed down as were the rest of the W4s.. One could argue that he we starting to slow down a bit in 2008,his numbers were way down compared to 2008 and not just because Eli was checking into more running plays due to what the defense was giving us...right when he signed that deal
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Post by bluebuddha on May 22, 2021 9:04:21 GMT -5
In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I think he was falling out of favor in Pittsburgh (and this was also when they started their economical approach to outside WRs.. I mean as great as plax was we all seem to forget he really didn't run the most precise routes and had a had habit of guessing on his option routes.. Also people forget that was Big Ben's first year and he was basicly old school brought along the first few years as a game manager (because having 7 year rookie deals you can still bring a qb along slowly and build the rest of the team).. So plax's numbers were indeed down as were the rest of the W4s.. One could argue that he we starting to slow down a bit in 2008,his numbers were way down compared to 2008 and not just because Eli was checking into more running plays due to what the defense was giving us...right when he signed that deal Actually according to Eli, Plax was the best prepared WR he worked with. He even told a story of how plax took better notes than him in offensive meetings. Then there was the story where he constantly had to tell Steve Smith what route Steve had to run or what play was called. I would love to get the link to where you read or saw Plax was a bad route runner or guessed on his option routes. I have not come across this information keeping up with all things Giants.
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Post by TEM on May 22, 2021 9:07:04 GMT -5
In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I think he was falling out of favor in Pittsburgh (and this was also when they started their economical approach to outside WRs.. I mean as great as plax was we all seem to forget he really didn't run the most precise routes and had a had habit of guessing on his option routes.. Also people forget that was Big Ben's first year and he was basicly old school brought along the first few years as a game manager (because having 7 year rookie deals you can still bring a qb along slowly and build the rest of the team).. So plax's numbers were indeed down as were the rest of the W4s.. One could argue that he we starting to slow down a bit in 2008,his numbers were way down compared to 2008 and not just because Eli was checking into more running plays due to what the defense was giving us...right when he signed that deal None of that is the point . Imgrate use a point of contention .You sign a player on what you think he is going to do . Not on what he has accomplished. I presented. A hole with that theory . Stating if a player sucks his entire career . You should sign him because you think he will change that pattern. He used Burress as an example for his theory. Plex's track record did not fit his inclination that he was a subpar player that all of a sudden blossomed when he became a Giant. There is no evidence. To support that for an example to make his point valid. What he is suggesting is You sign on what you believe they are capable of no matter what your body of work is. We sign WR John Ross this year . His contract ammont is inline with his previous accomplishments . 42% completion. Percentage, 6yards per reception........ What Imgrate is suggesting is ; If the Giants believed Ross was not going to follow the pattern of achievement he has produced and was going to become some phenom singing . You pay him big bucks. He was paid on what his body of work show him to be. This is exactly why teams do not pay according to "I think he will" and make risk assessments on what they have already done and age. If injuries were as big of a deal as some think Golliday or Jackson would not have be given the contracts they were awarded . As I stated in a previous post. Barkley has 2 seasons to show what his contract value will be.
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Post by giantlegacy on May 22, 2021 9:19:59 GMT -5
I think he was falling out of favor in Pittsburgh (and this was also when they started their economical approach to outside WRs.. I mean as great as plax was we all seem to forget he really didn't run the most precise routes and had a had habit of guessing on his option routes.. Also people forget that was Big Ben's first year and he was basicly old school brought along the first few years as a game manager (because having 7 year rookie deals you can still bring a qb along slowly and build the rest of the team).. So plax's numbers were indeed down as were the rest of the W4s.. One could argue that he we starting to slow down a bit in 2008,his numbers were way down compared to 2008 and not just because Eli was checking into more running plays due to what the defense was giving us...right when he signed that deal Actually according to Eli, Plax was the best prepared WR he worked with. He even told a story of how plax took better notes than him in offensive meetings. Then there was the story where he constantly had to tell Steve Smith what route Steve had to run or what play was called. I would love to get the link to where you read or saw Plax was a bad route runner or guessed on his option routes. I have not come across this information keeping up with all things Giants. Seemed most of Eli's pick 6s were in Plax's direction....(remember a really frustrating one where one was the reason we didn't shut out Dallas in 2008 where he was running a go and Eli threw a slant directly to the Dallas defender)
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Post by imgrate on May 22, 2021 12:18:49 GMT -5
He wasn't anything special until he got to us. Anyway, a little beside the point. I think myself and a couple others believe that paying a running back top dollar on a 2nd contract hurts your team more than it helps. If you don't agree with that, that's OK, just different philosophies. In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I'm not saying we should sign sucky players. You made that inference.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 22, 2021 12:32:01 GMT -5
Yes he will be the highest paid rb in history By his next team (where he promptly re-injures the ACL on the 3rd play of the first game 2022..pissing off his new owner - Jerrah J) Barkley has a decent comeback year, gains...say 1300 all purpose yards..DG in a moment of clarity and trades him, right after the last game for a 2nd and 3rd rd(er).. Thats after another moment of clarity where he picks up FA Michael Carter and/or Trey Sermon in mid-season for a bucket of ham sandwiches and a jar of pickles, both contribute to our 160 rushing yrd/gm......incidentally both con block How are both of them going to be on the market Ans why Sermon,a plodding big back with an even bigger injury history than Barkley And 160 on the ground a game witb 285 in the air... That's a number 1 offense in tbe league as that's 2 K on the ground and 45K in the air Barkely better not get injured in 2022 he is under contract here lol.
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Post by TEM on May 22, 2021 12:34:29 GMT -5
In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I'm not saying we should sign sucky players. You made that inference. What do you mean????? You said a contract should be given on what the FO believes the player will do . Not on accomplishment. Signing a suck wad player because it is believed "he will do better" falls exactly into that mindset. The logic of " I think he will preform" to base the rate of a contact upon and not past performance is illogical by its narrative These are your own words. How does this not apply to signing a player the sucks under the premise "i think he will be better" ? You pay people for what you think they're going to do, not for what they've already done. Your comment was easily interpreted . No NFL team has ever ignored a player's performance to base what that player's contract is worth. Like I said . Good luck with that logic.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 22, 2021 12:39:29 GMT -5
Barring another injury and/or a disastrous season I think they will sign him and give him the biggest contract ever for a RB. It’s a foregone conclusion to me I think this is getting way to complicated he has 2 years 2021 and 2022 to prove he is a top 3 talent still and can stay health,y if he looks like Adrien Patterson in his prime he will be signed if they can do it with out killing the cap. DG keeps feeling out of negotiations, That said if he is really good solid versatile back they might sign him to contract that works for both the team and him. If he is injured again and comes back dependable but nothing special he will be left to test the market. One thing the Giants haven't done under gentlemen wether they were his guys or Reeses if they are good they stay if they are bad they cut bait quickly.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 22, 2021 12:44:36 GMT -5
Actually according to Eli, Plax was the best prepared WR he worked with. He even told a story of how plax took better notes than him in offensive meetings. Then there was the story where he constantly had to tell Steve Smith what route Steve had to run or what play was called. I would love to get the link to where you read or saw Plax was a bad route runner or guessed on his option routes. I have not come across this information keeping up with all things Giants. Seemed most of Eli's pick 6s were in Plax's direction....(remember a really frustrating one where one was the reason we didn't shut out Dallas in 2008 where he was running a go and Eli threw a slant directly to the Dallas defender) Him and Shockey. I watched that vikings game where Sharper picked him a few times couple pick sixes one was Shockey missing a sight adjustment on a blitz BB ran the exact same blitz in the superbowl with the same coverage but Boss adjusted and got the first. Saw it on a film break down. He had a few in Nicks rookie year with Nicks screwing up on option routes also.
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Post by giantlegacy on May 22, 2021 12:47:26 GMT -5
Seemed most of Eli's pick 6s were in Plax's direction....(remember a really frustrating one where one was the reason we didn't shut out Dallas in 2008 where he was running a go and Eli threw a slant directly to the Dallas defender) Him and Shockey. I watched that vikings game where Sharper picked him a few times couple pick sixes one was Shockey missing a sight adjustment on a blitz BB ran the exact same blitz in the superbowl with the same coverage but Boss adjusted and got the first. Saw it on a film break down. He had a few in Nicks rookie year with Nicks screwing up on option routes also. Funny thing is that with most teams in college running at least some air raid principles more recievers are coming into the league that are good at pre and post snap sight adjusts ...probably why more are developing quickly..especially teams that have added air raid elements to their offense
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 22, 2021 12:49:58 GMT -5
In 2004 he had a 59% completion percentage with 19 yards per catch 5 TDs in 11 games. Keep trying to use him as an excuse to sign sucky players because you believe they will get better. What else do you have to show on him to show he "sucked" when Accorsi singed him. I think he was falling out of favor in Pittsburgh (and this was also when they started their economical approach to outside WRs.. I mean as great as plax was we all seem to forget he really didn't run the most precise routes and had a had habit of guessing on his option routes.. Also people forget that was Big Ben's first year and he was basicly old school brought along the first few years as a game manager (because having 7 year rookie deals you can still bring a qb along slowly and build the rest of the team).. So plax's numbers were indeed down as were the rest of the W4s.. One could argue that he we starting to slow down a bit in 2008,his numbers were way down compared to 2008 and not just because Eli was checking into more running plays due to what the defense was giving us...right when he signed that deal Plex started to be more competent after his ankle kept him off the practice field and inside studying film in 2007 I remember he wasn't practicing and TC had him inside with someone studying film. He was a physical nightmare to deal with getting his head in the game made almost unstoppable.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on May 22, 2021 12:52:11 GMT -5
Him and Shockey. I watched that vikings game where Sharper picked him a few times couple pick sixes one was Shockey missing a sight adjustment on a blitz BB ran the exact same blitz in the superbowl with the same coverage but Boss adjusted and got the first. Saw it on a film break down. He had a few in Nicks rookie year with Nicks screwing up on option routes also. Funny thing is that with most teams in college running at least some air raid principles more recievers are coming into the league that are good at pre and post snap sight adjusts ...probably why more are developing quickly..especially teams that have added air raid elements to their offense Makes a ton of sense the OLs don't give them much time, they need to get open on time and make the correct reads against pressure.
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Post by bluebuddha on May 22, 2021 13:23:42 GMT -5
Actually according to Eli, Plax was the best prepared WR he worked with. He even told a story of how plax took better notes than him in offensive meetings. Then there was the story where he constantly had to tell Steve Smith what route Steve had to run or what play was called. I would love to get the link to where you read or saw Plax was a bad route runner or guessed on his option routes. I have not come across this information keeping up with all things Giants. Seemed most of Eli's pick 6s were in Plax's direction....(remember a really frustrating one where one was the reason we didn't shut out Dallas in 2008 where he was running a go and Eli threw a slant directly to the Dallas defender) If you could provide links to articles on what you stated where Plax was a consistently bad route runner or he forgot his options often, it would be appreciated. I can only surmise this is your opinion not based on any research or facts but rather just recollection. I can understand why it's different from what Eli and Plax and other Giant's members during that time have stated.
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Post by imgrate on May 23, 2021 9:55:36 GMT -5
I'm not saying we should sign sucky players. You made that inference. What do you mean????? You said a contract should be given on what the FO believes the player will do . Not on accomplishment. Signing a suck wad player because it is believed "he will do better" falls exactly into that mindset. The logic of " I think he will preform" to base the rate of a contact upon and not past performance is illogical by its narrative These are your own words. How does this not apply to signing a player the sucks under the premise "i think he will be better" ? You pay people for what you think they're going to do, not for what they've already done. Your comment was easily interpreted . No NFL team has ever ignored a player's performance to base what that player's contract is worth. Like I said . Good luck with that logic. The teams that have done that have been the most successful. Belicheck was the master of letting players go who seem like they are great players to the public but right before they take the downturn in their career. I think this is a pretty logically held belief? You want to sign players that you think will be able to live up to the contract, no? Past performance isn't the only piece of evidence.
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Post by TEM on May 23, 2021 11:16:28 GMT -5
What do you mean????? You said a contract should be given on what the FO believes the player will do . Not on accomplishment. Signing a suck wad player because it is believed "he will do better" falls exactly into that mindset. The logic of " I think he will preform" to base the rate of a contact upon and not past performance is illogical by its narrative These are your own words. How does this not apply to signing a player the sucks under the premise "i think he will be better" ? Your comment was easily interpreted . No NFL team has ever ignored a player's performance to base what that player's contract is worth. Like I said . Good luck with that logic. The teams that have done that have been the most successful. Belicheck was the master of letting players go who seem like they are great players to the public but right before they take the downturn in their career. I think this is a pretty logically held belief? You want to sign players that you think will be able to live up to the contract, no? Past performance isn't the only piece of evidence. ; He gave all these guys contracts based upon their performance. Brady, Wilfork, Faulk (a running back), Harrison, Seymour, Bruschi, Law ,Harrison ,Gronk...... .Shal I name more?
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Post by imgrate on May 23, 2021 12:08:07 GMT -5
The teams that have done that have been the most successful. Belicheck was the master of letting players go who seem like they are great players to the public but right before they take the downturn in their career. I think this is a pretty logically held belief? You want to sign players that you think will be able to live up to the contract, no? Past performance isn't the only piece of evidence. ; He gave all these guys contracts based upon their performance. Brady, Wilfork, Faulk (a running back), Harrison, Seymour, Bruschi, Law ,Harrison ,Gronk...... .Shal I name more? He signed those guys because he thought they were going to continue to be good. Maybe you think that I'm saying that past performance isn't an indicator that a player will continue to be good? If so, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have to take into account player age, position, injury history, etc.
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Post by TEM on May 23, 2021 12:49:49 GMT -5
; He gave all these guys contracts based upon their performance. Brady, Wilfork, Faulk (a running back), Harrison, Seymour, Bruschi, Law ,Harrison ,Gronk...... .Shal I name more? He signed those guys because he thought they were going to continue to be good. Maybe you think that I'm saying that past performance isn't an indicator that a player will continue to be good? If so, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have to take into account player age, position, injury history, etc. Golliday and Jackson put the end to the injury theory. If that were true neither would have been given large contracts. If position is a factor I am assuming you are thinking RB . Running backs would never be handed a lucrative 2nd contract. That mindset has also been proven to be false. Age is the only line in this statement I find to have validity. This is exactly. What you said when you replied to my post. "You pay people for what you think they're going to do, not for what they've already done."
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Post by imgrate on May 23, 2021 15:01:19 GMT -5
He signed those guys because he thought they were going to continue to be good. Maybe you think that I'm saying that past performance isn't an indicator that a player will continue to be good? If so, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying you have to take into account player age, position, injury history, etc. Golliday and Jackson put the end to the injury theory. If that were true neither would have been given large contracts. If position is a factor I am assuming you are thinking RB . Running backs would never be handed a lucrative 2nd contract. That mindset has also been proven to be false. Age is the only line in this statement I find to have validity. This is exactly. What you said when you replied to my post. "You pay people for what you think they're going to do, not for what they've already done." I know that teams do it. The question is should we do it, not whether or not we will. There's little doubt in my mind they'll pay saquon big bucks.
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Post by TEM on May 23, 2021 16:04:29 GMT -5
Golliday and Jackson put the end to the injury theory. If that were true neither would have been given large contracts. If position is a factor I am assuming you are thinking RB . Running backs would never be handed a lucrative 2nd contract. That mindset has also been proven to be false. Age is the only line in this statement I find to have validity. This is exactly. What you said when you replied to my post. "You pay people for what you think they're going to do, not for what they've already done." I know that teams do it. The question is should we do it, not whether or not we will. There's little doubt in my mind they'll pay saquon big bucks. He has 2 seasons to prove the worth of his contract.
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Post by southerner on May 23, 2021 17:01:28 GMT -5
Judge coached under Belichek and Saban. If Saquon’s pass blocking is as pitiful as it was in 2019, he won’t even start. You cannot play a RB who is going to get your QB tattooed....it is amazing As talented as Saquon is at many things, he is the worst pass blocking RB I have ever seen at the NFL level.
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Post by jb456 on May 24, 2021 11:42:50 GMT -5
I know that teams do it. The question is should we do it, not whether or not we will. There's little doubt in my mind they'll pay saquon big bucks. He has 2 seasons to prove the worth of his contract. Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against.
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Post by TEM on May 24, 2021 11:48:09 GMT -5
He has 2 seasons to prove the worth of his contract. Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against. You do not leave your best horse in the stable on race day. If you want to believe it or not. He will be on the field on 3rd down
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Post by giantlegacy on May 24, 2021 11:48:17 GMT -5
He has 2 seasons to prove the worth of his contract. Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against. He seemed more than OK picking up short yards..especially when the line didn't allow a jailbreak into the backfield People conveniently forget he was good when Shurmer made him run inside all the time with the RPO a gap runs in 201i despite a below average interior line (was still getting positive yards even after getting hit behind the line )
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Post by jb456 on May 24, 2021 12:36:52 GMT -5
Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against. He seemed more than OK picking up short yards..especially when the line didn't allow a jailbreak into the backfield People conveniently forget he was good when Shurmer made him run inside all the time with the RPO a gap runs in 201i despite a below average interior line (was still getting positive yards even after getting hit behind the line ) That makes sense and the line does have quite a bit of impact on a players ability to pick up 3rd and short. Now, what about the pass blocking and blitz pickup? These are important facets to a running backs game and can change the course of the game if a blitzer runs over a running back and sacks or causes a forced fumble (Ie: Jamal Adams mugging Daniel Jones). I believe that Judge will keep Barkley in no matter if he improves in pass blocking or not. What do you think?
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Post by jb456 on May 24, 2021 12:38:26 GMT -5
Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against. You do not leave your best horse in the stable on race day. If you want to believe it or not. He will be on the field on 3rd down I agree, he will be left in on 3rd down. If he isn't in on 3rd down, his days are numbered...
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Post by Kruunch on May 24, 2021 20:53:36 GMT -5
Can Barkley be considered a 3 down back if he can't pass block, pick up a blitz, or has trouble picking short 3rd down or 3rd and goal? I'm not asking a rhetorical question here, I believe an argument can be made for and against. You do not leave your best horse in the stable on race day. If you want to believe it or not. He will be on the field on 3rd down Ah, yes you do when your horse doesn’t know how to run. Unless, you want to give the defense an advantage pre snap. He can’t block, so he’s going run a wheel route or button hook. He’s great out of the backfield, no question. However, when everyone in the league knows his blocking is suspect, they will blitz religiously on his side. He’ll be on 3rd downs, until he gets Jones killed. Then, it will be Booker.
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Post by TEM on May 25, 2021 5:49:52 GMT -5
You do not leave your best horse in the stable on race day. If you want to believe it or not. He will be on the field on 3rd down Ah, yes you do when your horse doesn’t know how to run. Unless, you want to give the defense an advantage pre snap. He can’t block, so he’s going run a wheel route or button hook. He’s great out of the backfield, no question. However, when everyone in the league knows his blocking is suspect, they will blitz religiously on his side. He’ll be on 3rd downs, until he gets Jones killed. Then, it will be Booker. You do not think Barkley knows how to run? That is funnier than your stand last year on canceling the Draft. I have to give that one to you . I did not think you had it in you to top that one . But you did. It is mindboggling that you think his only purpose on 3rd down would be to block.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 7:46:44 GMT -5
You do not leave your best horse in the stable on race day. If you want to believe it or not. He will be on the field on 3rd down Ah, yes you do when your horse doesn’t know how to run. Unless, you want to give the defense an advantage pre snap. He can’t block, so he’s going run a wheel route or button hook. He’s great out of the backfield, no question. However, when everyone in the league knows his blocking is suspect, they will blitz religiously on his side. He’ll be on 3rd downs, until he gets Jones killed. Then, it will be Booker. That's the way I see it going down also. The team might already be in that spot especially if Booker plays well the 1st few games while Barkley is healing..
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Post by Kruunch on May 25, 2021 8:46:27 GMT -5
Ah, yes you do when your horse doesn’t know how to run. Unless, you want to give the defense an advantage pre snap. He can’t block, so he’s going run a wheel route or button hook. He’s great out of the backfield, no question. However, when everyone in the league knows his blocking is suspect, they will blitz religiously on his side. He’ll be on 3rd downs, until he gets Jones killed. Then, it will be Booker. You do not think Barkley knows how to run? That is funnier than your stand last year on canceling the Draft. I have to give that one to you . I did not think you had it in you to top that one . But you did. It is mindboggling that you think his only purpose on 3rd down would be to block. That’s what I said? I was commenting on your stupid horse analogy. You know, leaving your horse in the stable on race day.. Obviously, this has nothing to do with Barkley running. I was speaking on his blocking, which you seem to defend. Barkley has been so bad that he has been substituted on 3rd downs for Gallman. You know, the dime a dozen back you refer him too. If that’s not an indictment on Barkley’s blocking, nothing is. Yeah, what was I thinking with the draft during the height of a pandemic. People are losing lives, jobs, their well being. But, let’s watch the draft.. It was stupid and you know it.. Typical money grubbing NFL at its finest.. Speaking of gems, still want to try and sell me that the Giants should take Daniel Jones biggest strength away from him? Why don’t we ask him to stop breathing too, that should build his stamina..
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Post by Kruunch on May 25, 2021 8:58:21 GMT -5
Ah, yes you do when your horse doesn’t know how to run. Unless, you want to give the defense an advantage pre snap. He can’t block, so he’s going run a wheel route or button hook. He’s great out of the backfield, no question. However, when everyone in the league knows his blocking is suspect, they will blitz religiously on his side. He’ll be on 3rd downs, until he gets Jones killed. Then, it will be Booker. That's the way I see it going down also. The team might already be in that spot especially if Booker plays well the 1st few games while Barkley is healing.. Big reason why they aggressively went after Booker. Gettleman said it himself, “he’s a three down back.” Smart investment, you have an injury prone back who can’t block worth a damn. You need to have a backup who can. Unless, the giants just plan on running Barkley on routes every 3rd down. Like we did in ‘19. We might as well choreograph our 3rd down packages for the defenses.
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