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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 13:38:23 GMT -5
Light years better? As of now the O line is worse, the WR’s are worse, the QB is worse, and the D line is worse. Reese never had as many top 10 picks as Gettleman has had either. The Giants have been the worse team in the league when you combine all the years DG has been GM, Reese never even came close to having that honor. Plus, what GM is dumb enough to draft a RB with the 2nd overall pick, especially when a team has never been in such an obvious state of needing a complete rebuild? He should have been fired immediately after drafting Barkley. 2017 was the worst team in the league, then again they were battling against themselves and the Browns in 2014 and 2015, as far as OL goes this lins is young and better then Flowers Pugh Richberg Jerry Newhouse, Sorry the last 3 years the team has been trending up Barkely if used right is his rookie year 2000 yards combined a 12 TDs and a threat to take to the house in the running game or passing game on any play at anytime not all RBs are the same when you have one who can run the route tree and carry the rock that is called a multi faceted weapon that takes pressure off the rest of the offense. Trending up? They literally lost more games 2 years ago then they did the first year DG took over and there are still more questions than answers with several areas of this team. Not to mention, when you’re the worst team in the league it’s hard not to trend up but somehow Gettleman has managed to challenge that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2021 13:39:37 GMT -5
What? What? What? What? And you’re saying Dave should be fired for drafting the best payer on the team? What? Yes. Drafting a RB with the 2nd overall pick is probably the worst move a GM can make, especially considering how bad the team was at the time. Not only is drafting a RB that high unforgivable and set the team back a couple years but to draft a RB that high with no O line is pure negligence. Not only was the pick horrible but the fact that he didn’t see how bad the O line was is alarming for someone who’s job it is to evaluate talent.This is incorrect Getty knew how bad the the oline was and made it his mission statement to fix it!! Scary reality isn't it? Been a fail for 3 years running..
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Post by Kruunch on Jun 23, 2021 13:43:29 GMT -5
That’s the thing about butting in a conversation. You have no idea what we’re talking about. Blue decided to ramble about all that Ernie has done in his career, which I’m sure he copied from me years back when I was on my “defend Ernie campaign.” So, with all the talk about how much Dave has meant to the organization, I brought that when the time was who to promote to GM. Accorsi recommended Jerry Reese. Of course, fans want to diminish how he got the job. Point is, the Giants and Ernie felt Reese was the best candidate for the position. Yes, one is unemployed, the other is dangling by his short hairs.. I know what the conversation is about. I'm asking how is the decision to hire Reese over Gettleman relevant? Especially after Gettleman was hired to replace Reese. Clearly, you don’t. I not only explained it to you, but answered your question. Hit the showers Mike, you have concussion symptoms.
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Post by Roswell on Jun 23, 2021 13:43:38 GMT -5
To me the difference between the 2 GMs is one inherited Eli in his prime and the other inherited Eli in deep decline.
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Post by Roswell on Jun 23, 2021 13:44:26 GMT -5
What? What? What? What? And you’re saying Dave should be fired for drafting the best payer on the team? What? Yes. Drafting a RB with the 2nd overall pick is probably the worst move a GM can make, especially considering how bad the team was at the time. Not only is drafting a RB that high unforgivable and set the team back a couple years but to draft a RB that high with no O line is pure negligence. Not only was the pick horrible but the fact that he didn’t see how bad the O line was is alarming for someone who’s job it is to evaluate talent. Did you want Darnold?
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Post by Kruunch on Jun 23, 2021 13:44:27 GMT -5
To me the difference between the 2 GMs is one inherited Eli in his prime and the other inherited Eli in deep decline. Sucks for Dave. I guess he has to do that dreadful word. Work..
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 13:49:16 GMT -5
Yes. Drafting a RB with the 2nd overall pick is probably the worst move a GM can make, especially considering how bad the team was at the time. Not only is drafting a RB that high unforgivable and set the team back a couple years but to draft a RB that high with no O line is pure negligence. Not only was the pick horrible but the fact that he didn’t see how bad the O line was is alarming for someone who’s job it is to evaluate talent. Did you want Darnold? No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make.
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Post by Roswell on Jun 23, 2021 13:55:43 GMT -5
No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make. I understand the concept that the running back is not a priority position. But Guard might also be considered a position of low value. Granted Nelson is a terrific player but it's not like Barkley disappointed. He was NFL Offensive Rookie Of The Year. Over Nelson. He got hurt last year. A big if, but if he comes back to form, then he will be a tremendous value to the Giant offense.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 14:05:42 GMT -5
No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make. I understand the concept that the running back is not a priority position. But Guard might also be considered a position of low value. Granted Nelson is a terrific player but it's not like Barkley disappointed. He was NFL Offensive Rookie Of The Year. Over Nelson. He got hurt last year. A big if, but if he comes back to form, then he will be a tremendous value to the Giant offense. I get that and I knew someone would bring it up but there was so much wrong with that pick. Not only did we not have an O line for him to run behind but we had so many other areas of need. RB is also the most injured position in football and is the most easily replaceable. I love Barkley as a player and person but it was a horrendous pick. If we were literally set at every other position then I could understand it but it was a luxury pick that we couldn’t afford. A lot of people act like a guard isn’t that important or can be easily replaced but just look at the issues we’ve had at guard and how it’s still a huge area of concern. If we had taken Nelson and solidified the O line, we could have got good production out of a lot of RB’s taken in later rounds. Instead, we don’t know if we have a “legit” QB because he hasn’t had a good O line and Barkley’s first few years have been wasted. Sorry man, there’s no way anyone can convince me that taking a RB that high is a smart decision.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 14:06:18 GMT -5
2017 was the worst team in the league, then again they were battling against themselves and the Browns in 2014 and 2015, as far as OL goes this lins is young and better then Flowers Pugh Richberg Jerry Newhouse, Sorry the last 3 years the team has been trending up Barkely if used right is his rookie year 2000 yards combined a 12 TDs and a threat to take to the house in the running game or passing game on any play at anytime not all RBs are the same when you have one who can run the route tree and carry the rock that is called a multi faceted weapon that takes pressure off the rest of the offense. Trending up? They literally lost more games 2 years ago then they did the first year DG took over and there are still more questions than answers with several areas of this team. Not to mention, when you’re the worst team in the league it’s hard not to trend up but somehow Gettleman has managed to challenge that. They have been better each year, last year if it weren't for butter finger EE they might have been 8 and 8. Gettlemen was cleaning house the first 2 years inside and on the field. It was the right thing to do restructure the front office and get all that dead losing bad attitude off the team. I wanted Reese to do it since 2014. Vinnie rather have a young team with upside to grow into then a bad Vet team that are what they are. You have to remember the OL for years were giving up tons of pressures and sacks with a QB that got it out in 2.5 seconds or less and they couldn't break the 1000 yard rushing mark, they have improved, just like with Reese DG won't get the same rope but if the free agent spending spree doesn't work out and DJ fails he will be gone even tho I think Mara lost patience and told them to do what ever it takes. At least the the guys they signed are young and some have shorter contracts.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 14:13:10 GMT -5
Trending up? They literally lost more games 2 years ago then they did the first year DG took over and there are still more questions than answers with several areas of this team. Not to mention, when you’re the worst team in the league it’s hard not to trend up but somehow Gettleman has managed to challenge that. They have been better each year, last year if it weren't for butter finger EE they might have been 8 and 8. Gettlemen was cleaning house the first 2 years inside and on the field. It was the right thing to do restructure the front office and get all that dead losing bad attitude off the team. I wanted Reese to do it since 2014. Vinnie rather have a young team with upside to grow into then a bad Vet team that are what they are. You have to remember the OL for years were giving up tons of pressures and sacks with a QB that got it out in 2.5 seconds or less and they couldn't break the 1000 yard rushing mark, they have improved, just like with Reese DG won't get the same rope but if the free agent spending spree doesn't work out and DJ fails he will be gone even tho I think Mara lost patience and told them to do what ever it takes. At least the the guys they signed are young and some have shorter contracts. You bring up some solid points but DG has botched a lot of moves. Solder contract was horrible. Oma was horrible, Ogletree was a disaster, Barkley was bad, Jones remains to be seen, the Hernandez pick is looking worse and worse…the list literally goes on and on. No point in arguing it, as I’ve said several times I don’t like Gettleman and Mara is also to largely blame but I would rather see the Giants win and admit I was wrong rather than continue this path of misery. I hope you’re right, I’m just not as optimistic, primary areas of concern being Jones, the O line and now Toney.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 14:16:34 GMT -5
Vinnie is just getting riled up reese did have a lot of top tens but yes Gettlemen has had more through trades the only one who didn't live up to his 1st round status so far is Baker. Right now Toney is a bit scary Lol, I am easily riled, especially when it comes to something I care about so much (although I shouldn’t) Dude I used to be pissed all football season during the handly or hand job years, then the D Brown years came and I was worse, this time around I saw it coming we weren't getting guys in to replace guys retiring and the cap was tight, 2013 pissed me off but I knew, just didn't expect it to go on as long as it did and I never had any faith in that 2016 team for me that was a set back one playoff appearance for 2 years of cap hell and a full 3and a half years of structuring the scouting department analytics and building the roster back with talent and depth. since they ddi the work with the front office the last 2 drafts have been pretty good on the face the first were average. As I said tho they flop heads will roll and they should they should never give anyone the rope Reese got
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Post by McCherry on Jun 23, 2021 14:18:19 GMT -5
No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make. I understand the concept that the running back is not a priority position. But Guard might also be considered a position of low value. Granted Nelson is a terrific player but it's not like Barkley disappointed. He was NFL Offensive Rookie Of The Year. Over Nelson. He got hurt last year. A big if, but if he comes back to form, then he will be a tremendous value to the Giant offense. Ironically, Dave would've been destroyed for drafting a Guard #2 overall. How would one Guard on a terrible line have made us better? Our record would've actually been worse.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 14:29:49 GMT -5
They have been better each year, last year if it weren't for butter finger EE they might have been 8 and 8. Gettlemen was cleaning house the first 2 years inside and on the field. It was the right thing to do restructure the front office and get all that dead losing bad attitude off the team. I wanted Reese to do it since 2014. Vinnie rather have a young team with upside to grow into then a bad Vet team that are what they are. You have to remember the OL for years were giving up tons of pressures and sacks with a QB that got it out in 2.5 seconds or less and they couldn't break the 1000 yard rushing mark, they have improved, just like with Reese DG won't get the same rope but if the free agent spending spree doesn't work out and DJ fails he will be gone even tho I think Mara lost patience and told them to do what ever it takes. At least the the guys they signed are young and some have shorter contracts. You bring up some solid points but DG has botched a lot of moves. Solder contract was horrible. Oma was horrible, Ogletree was a disaster, Barkley was bad, Jones remains to be seen, the Hernandez pick is looking worse and worse…the list literally goes on and on. No point in arguing it, as I’ve said several times I don’t like Gettleman and Mara is also to largely blame but I would rather see the Giants win and admit I was wrong rather than continue this path of misery. I hope you’re right, I’m just not as optimistic, primary areas of concern being Jones, the O line and now Toney. I agree to a point we have to remember they had Flowers and Bret Jones under contract Solder was a necessary evil this is what happens to and drafting teams. In the end he took a massive pay cut and will help the young kids he's a pro's pro and supply solid depth probably really healthy right now and be a good swing tackle hopefully Oma got 5mill a year thats what average guys get that said Im glad they didn't play games they cut him quick, Ogletree was a stop gap just like the OL they had Goodson under contract and no one else Ogletree physically couldn't get it done all the time but he could run the defense from the field and sad as it is he was our best LB since probably Boley says how sad our drafts were, Hernandez is an average to above average guard I'm hoping with some real coaching and conditioning he will be ok he's not a bad player but he isn't living up to what scouts thought he was. I nor hate or like Gettlemen but I see the reasons he has done some things when he first got here, I think as far as the roster goes it might the best it's been since 2012 they gotta stay healthy and learn each other their is a lot of new blood on this team.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 14:36:19 GMT -5
I understand the concept that the running back is not a priority position. But Guard might also be considered a position of low value. Granted Nelson is a terrific player but it's not like Barkley disappointed. He was NFL Offensive Rookie Of The Year. Over Nelson. He got hurt last year. A big if, but if he comes back to form, then he will be a tremendous value to the Giant offense. Ironically, Dave would've been destroyed for drafting a Guard #2 overall. How would one Guard on a terrible line have made us better? Our record would've actually been worse. And? It was clear we didn’t have a playoff caliber team or anything close to it, what good is a RB with no O line? An O lineman goes a long ways to improving the team as a whole. The QB has a better chance at being more successful as would the RB, TE and WR’s. A RB doesn’t have close to the value an O lineman has, IMOF, with Barkley’s piss poor blocking he’s a liability to Jones. How do you plan on building a solid O line without drafting one lineman at a time? You have to start somewhere and and that somewhere is the O line. Dave had the right idea, he just failed epically at executing it. Chances are Nelson (or any HOF guard) will have a long career compared to a HOF RB. We would have got a lot more bang for the buck with Nelson than Barkley.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 14:41:50 GMT -5
You bring up some solid points but DG has botched a lot of moves. Solder contract was horrible. Oma was horrible, Ogletree was a disaster, Barkley was bad, Jones remains to be seen, the Hernandez pick is looking worse and worse…the list literally goes on and on. No point in arguing it, as I’ve said several times I don’t like Gettleman and Mara is also to largely blame but I would rather see the Giants win and admit I was wrong rather than continue this path of misery. I hope you’re right, I’m just not as optimistic, primary areas of concern being Jones, the O line and now Toney. I agree to a point we have to remember they had Flowers and Bret Jones under contract Solder was a necessary evil this is what happens to and drafting teams. In the end he took a massive pay cut and will help the young kids he's a pro's pro and supply solid depth probably really healthy right now and be a good swing tackle hopefully Oma got 5mill a year thats what average guys get that said Im glad they didn't play games they cut him quick, Ogletree was a stop gap just like the OL they had Goodson under contract and no one else Ogletree physically couldn't get it done all the time but he could run the defense from the field and sad as it is he was our best LB since probably Boley says how sad our drafts were, Hernandez is an average to above average guard I'm hoping with some real coaching and conditioning he will be ok he's not a bad player but he isn't living up to what scouts thought he was. I nor hate or like Gettlemen but I see the reasons he has done some things when he first got here, I think as far as the roster goes it might the best it's been since 2012 they gotta stay healthy and learn each other their is a lot of new blood on this team. Solder may be a great teammate but I’m sick of hearing the cheerleader reasoning. If he plays anything like he did the past couple of years he’s not even a solid back up. Last time he played, he allowed the most pressures and/or sacks in the league IIRC. That’s horrible. Hernandez has regressed since his rookie year. Hopefully Thomas continues to improve but as of now, he was the worst pick of the 4 “big” tackles available. We have no idea what we have at guard and RT is still a big question mark. We’e going into DG’s 4th year, Jones and Barkley will be due for contracts pretty soon and we still have no idea what we have at QB because DG has done such a pathetic job at building the O line. Lol, getting irritated again, can you tell?
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Post by McCherry on Jun 23, 2021 14:46:22 GMT -5
Ironically, Dave would've been destroyed for drafting a Guard #2 overall. How would one Guard on a terrible line have made us better? Our record would've actually been worse. And? It was clear we didn’t have a playoff caliber team or anything close to it, what good is a RB with no O line? An O lineman goes a long ways to improving the team as a whole. The QB has a better chance at being more successful as would the RB, TE and WR’s. A RB doesn’t have close to the value an O lineman has, IMOF, with Barkley’s piss poor blocking he’s a liability to Jones. How do you plan on building a solid O line without drafting one lineman at a time? You have to start somewhere and and that somewhere is the O line. Dave had the right idea, he just failed epically at executing it. Chances are Nelson (or any HOF guard) will have a long career compared to a HOF RB. We would have got a lot more bang for the buck with Nelson than Barkley. Rookie of the year? Over 1300 yards rushing and 91 receptions. 15 TD's? The problem were the Tackles, not OG. The Guard play was good that year with Hernandez and Brown. Barkley has been hurt, that's why fans are complaining and second-guessing. But the Giants without question won games because of him and will continue to do so when he’s healthy.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 14:48:23 GMT -5
No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make. I get it the RB argument. But Barkely coming out was as advertised a multi faceted weapon and proved it his first year running behind a bad line 1350yards several runs of over 40 or more 12 TD s and 650 receiving yards. Came back in three weeks from an 8 week injury played 13 games in year 2 and had 1400 yards combined and 6 TDs you give me that production I don't care if it comes from a WR / RB / TE sometimes a player is just a that good, position means nothing he is gonna produce, Look at OBJ he has been injured almost every year it's not just RBs the more they get the ball the higher the chances are. One example I saw on the big blue banter pod cast barkely I believe has 9 running plays of 40 yards or more in his first 13 games Zeke Elliot who I respect has 3 in his career. If he weren't this good I'd be right there with you but when healthy teams have to worry about him in the passing game as well as the run game. He was the best player in the draft.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 14:54:17 GMT -5
And? It was clear we didn’t have a playoff caliber team or anything close to it, what good is a RB with no O line? An O lineman goes a long ways to improving the team as a whole. The QB has a better chance at being more successful as would the RB, TE and WR’s. A RB doesn’t have close to the value an O lineman has, IMOF, with Barkley’s piss poor blocking he’s a liability to Jones. How do you plan on building a solid O line without drafting one lineman at a time? You have to start somewhere and and that somewhere is the O line. Dave had the right idea, he just failed epically at executing it. Chances are Nelson (or any HOF guard) will have a long career compared to a HOF RB. We would have got a lot more bang for the buck with Nelson than Barkley. Rookie of the year? Over 1300 yards rushing and 91 receptions. 15 TD's? The problem were the Tackles, not OG. The Guard play was good that year with Hernandez and Brown. Brown wasn’t a long term solution and you’re acting like DG did a good job because he picked the best player on the team with the 2nd OVERALL pick. That should be a given, he doesn’t get praise for that. Please tell me when a RB has been more important than the O line? There’s been one RB in the past 20 years who has won the rushing title and SB in the same year. Dallas took Elliot with the 4th overall pick and they had one one of the best O lines in football for most of his career, where has that got them? They don’t even have one divisional playoff win. RB’s are an absolute waste of a first round pick and to think DG used the second overall pick on a RB is nauseating.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 14:56:01 GMT -5
I agree to a point we have to remember they had Flowers and Bret Jones under contract Solder was a necessary evil this is what happens to and drafting teams. In the end he took a massive pay cut and will help the young kids he's a pro's pro and supply solid depth probably really healthy right now and be a good swing tackle hopefully Oma got 5mill a year thats what average guys get that said Im glad they didn't play games they cut him quick, Ogletree was a stop gap just like the OL they had Goodson under contract and no one else Ogletree physically couldn't get it done all the time but he could run the defense from the field and sad as it is he was our best LB since probably Boley says how sad our drafts were, Hernandez is an average to above average guard I'm hoping with some real coaching and conditioning he will be ok he's not a bad player but he isn't living up to what scouts thought he was. I nor hate or like Gettlemen but I see the reasons he has done some things when he first got here, I think as far as the roster goes it might the best it's been since 2012 they gotta stay healthy and learn each other their is a lot of new blood on this team. Solder may be a great teammate but I’m sick of hearing the cheerleader reasoning. If he plays anything like he did the past couple of years he’s not even a solid back up. Last time he played, he allowed the most pressures and/or sacks in the league IIRC. That’s horrible. Hernandez has regressed since his rookie year. Hopefully Thomas continues to improve but as of now, he was the worst pick of the 4 “big” tackles available. We have no idea what we have at guard and RT is still a big question mark. We’e going into DG’s 4th year, Jones and Barkley will be due for contracts pretty soon and we still have no idea what we have at QB because DG has done such a pathetic job at building the O line. Lol, getting irritated again, can you tell? I think solder at the cut rate is worth it get happy were not stuck with his massive contract lol. I think the disservice DG had was to Jones not getting him some pass catchers I get EE is a physical freak but he has dropsy and isn't a great route runner, Slayton is a really good 5th round draft choice but he isn't a number 1 and Tate could help team as a 3rd WR not a 1 or 2 Shep is the only one who can get open on the regular he's a tough cover in the slot but that is where he failed Jones, get these guys open faster so he isn't sitting there with his thumb you know where.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 15:03:14 GMT -5
No, I wanted to trade back or take Nelson. It really doesn’t even matter, taking a RB that high is about as bad as a mistake as a GM can make. I get it the RB argument. But Barkely coming out was as advertised a multi faceted weapon and proved it his first year running behind a bad line 1350yards several runs of over 40 or more 12 TD s and 650 receiving yards. Came back in three weeks from an 8 week injury played 13 games in year 2 and had 1400 yards combined and 6 TDs you give me that production I don't care if it comes from a WR / RB / TE sometimes a player is just a that good, position means nothing he is gonna produce, Look at OBJ he has been injured almost every year it's not just RBs the more they get the ball the higher the chances are. One example I saw on the big blue banter pod cast barkely I believe has 9 running plays of 40 yards or more in his first 13 games Zeke Elliot who I respect has 3 in his career. If he weren't this good I'd be right there with you but when healthy teams have to worry about him in the passing game as well as the run game. He was the best player in the draft. I’d argue that Nelson was the best player in the draft but even if Barkley was the best, the value for a RB isn’t there and never will be. Would you rather have Nelson and Chubb or Barkley and Hernandez? There’s always RB’s taken in later rounds that are just as productive, if not more, than RB’s taken in the first round. RB’s suffer more injuries than any other position, that’s a proven fact and there’s stats to prove it, that should be taken into consideration when drafting. They also have a much shorter career than any other position, it was a bad bad bad decision. With a pick that high, they should be drafting building blocks for years to come, not a flashy RB whose position is notorious for being injury prone, having short careers and being easily replaceable.
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Post by McCherry on Jun 23, 2021 15:07:01 GMT -5
Rookie of the year? Over 1300 yards rushing and 91 receptions. 15 TD's? The problem were the Tackles, not OG. The Guard play was good that year with Hernandez and Brown. Brown wasn’t a long term solution and you’re acting like DG did a good job because he picked the best player on the team with the 2nd OVERALL pick. That should be a given, he doesn’t get praise for that. Please tell me when a RB has been more important than the O line? There’s been one RB in the past 20 years who has won the rushing title and SB in the same year. Dallas took Elliot with the 4th overall pick and they had one one of the best O lines in football for most of his career, where has that got them? They don’t even have one divisional playoff win. RB’s are an absolute waste of a first round pick and to think DG used the second overall pick on a RB is nauseating. No, I'm saying drafting the best player on the team was not a mistake.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 15:11:16 GMT -5
Solder may be a great teammate but I’m sick of hearing the cheerleader reasoning. If he plays anything like he did the past couple of years he’s not even a solid back up. Last time he played, he allowed the most pressures and/or sacks in the league IIRC. That’s horrible. Hernandez has regressed since his rookie year. Hopefully Thomas continues to improve but as of now, he was the worst pick of the 4 “big” tackles available. We have no idea what we have at guard and RT is still a big question mark. We’e going into DG’s 4th year, Jones and Barkley will be due for contracts pretty soon and we still have no idea what we have at QB because DG has done such a pathetic job at building the O line. Lol, getting irritated again, can you tell? I think solder at the cut rate is worth it get happy were not stuck with his massive contract lol. I think the disservice DG had was to Jones not getting him some pass catchers I get EE is a physical freak but he has dropsy and isn't a great route runner, Slayton is a really good 5th round draft choice but he isn't a number 1 and Tate could help team as a 3rd WR not a 1 or 2 Shep is the only one who can get open on the regular he's a tough cover in the slot but that is where he failed Jones, get these guys open faster so he isn't sitting there with his thumb you know where. For sure, I think it’s both the lack of receivers and the O line that have been a disservice to Jones. Again, Gettleman built the team in the complete opposite way of how it should be done. Everyone knows that the best way to succeed is by drafting a rookie QB who can step in and be an immediate difference maker while they’re still on their rookie deal. In order for that to happen, they have to have the other pieces in place to succeed first (ie the O line and WR’s). Here we are 3 years later and we’re all still wondering whether Jones is our future or if he’s a bust only because DG has set him up for failure so far. At least we know he’ll have the receivers this year but the O line is still a mystery. Neither of those should have even been an issue. Jones wasn’t a “can’t pass” QB. I would have rather built the rest of the team first and hired a journeyman QB to fill the spot until we had a proper roster for our rookie QB to succeed with but instead it’s been the exact opposite.
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Post by vinnie on Jun 23, 2021 15:16:34 GMT -5
Brown wasn’t a long term solution and you’re acting like DG did a good job because he picked the best player on the team with the 2nd OVERALL pick. That should be a given, he doesn’t get praise for that. Please tell me when a RB has been more important than the O line? There’s been one RB in the past 20 years who has won the rushing title and SB in the same year. Dallas took Elliot with the 4th overall pick and they had one one of the best O lines in football for most of his career, where has that got them? They don’t even have one divisional playoff win. RB’s are an absolute waste of a first round pick and to think DG used the second overall pick on a RB is nauseating. No, I'm saying drafting the best player on the team was not a mistake. I guess this is one of those agree to disagree. He used the #2 overall pick on the most injured, most easily replaceable, shortest career position in the league and predictably he was injured last year and the year before. I don’t care if he’s the best player on the team or not, you could make that same argument for a FG kicker, punter, whoever…the value isn’t there and the chances of getting the most out of him were never there because he had no O line. I don’t think you can find one person outside of a few Giants fans that have supported that pick.
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Post by imgrate on Jun 23, 2021 15:19:44 GMT -5
Ironically, Dave would've been destroyed for drafting a Guard #2 overall. How would one Guard on a terrible line have made us better? Our record would've actually been worse. And? It was clear we didn’t have a playoff caliber team or anything close to it, what good is a RB with no O line? An O lineman goes a long ways to improving the team as a whole. The QB has a better chance at being more successful as would the RB, TE and WR’s. A RB doesn’t have close to the value an O lineman has, IMOF, with Barkley’s piss poor blocking he’s a liability to Jones. How do you plan on building a solid O line without drafting one lineman at a time? You have to start somewhere and and that somewhere is the O line. Dave had the right idea, he just failed epically at executing it. Chances are Nelson (or any HOF guard) will have a long career compared to a HOF RB. We would have got a lot more bang for the buck with Nelson than Barkley. You absolutely get more bang for the buck with Nelson. Guard is a lower value position, absolutely, but not lower than RB. In 2018, Saquons cap number was 7th highest amongst Running Backs. That same cap number would have been 21st amongst Guards 2019, sqb cap number 6th amongst RBs, would've been 13th amongst Gs 2020, 3rd amongst RBs, 13th amongst Gs 2021, 3rd amongst RBs, 7th amongst Gs Now factor in that we wouldn't have had to take Nelson at 2 and could have traded back...also if you run those numbers at corner (Denzel ward) or edge rusher (Bradley chubb) then it becomes even more obvious how stupid it is to take RB at 2 overall.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 15:20:08 GMT -5
I get it the RB argument. But Barkely coming out was as advertised a multi faceted weapon and proved it his first year running behind a bad line 1350yards several runs of over 40 or more 12 TD s and 650 receiving yards. Came back in three weeks from an 8 week injury played 13 games in year 2 and had 1400 yards combined and 6 TDs you give me that production I don't care if it comes from a WR / RB / TE sometimes a player is just a that good, position means nothing he is gonna produce, Look at OBJ he has been injured almost every year it's not just RBs the more they get the ball the higher the chances are. One example I saw on the big blue banter pod cast barkely I believe has 9 running plays of 40 yards or more in his first 13 games Zeke Elliot who I respect has 3 in his career. If he weren't this good I'd be right there with you but when healthy teams have to worry about him in the passing game as well as the run game. He was the best player in the draft. I’d argue that Nelson was the best player in the draft but even if Barkley was the best, the value for a RB isn’t there and never will be. Would you rather have Nelson and Chubb or Barkley and Hernandez? There’s always RB’s taken in later rounds that are just as productive, if not more, than RB’s taken in the first round. RB’s suffer more injuries than any other position, that’s a proven fact and there’s stats to prove it, that should be taken into consideration when drafting. They also have a much shorter career than any other position, it was a bad bad bad decision. With a pick that high, they should be drafting building blocks for years to come, not a flashy RB whose position is notorious for being injury prone, having short careers and being easily replaceable. It's solid argument he has been healthy and makes a big difference for his team I will say this I would take Barkely over Chubb only because the numbers I put there a lot are top 2 or 3 in the history of the NFL. That said in hind sight it easy to take Nelson/ Chubb. Hernandez and Barkely should have been that Will H was grading out the first 4 weeks pretty close with Nelson and had a good rookie year. no one knows for sure how a player will grow Will H still has a chance to pretty good if they stabilize his coaching situation. I get all of the reasons not to take a RB, when a guy that can do it all at the highest level comes along and had a healthy college career it can't be a mistake if you feel Nelson was #1 then Barkely would be #2. the Idea was fundamentally correct drafting Barkely and Hernandez who was the #2 Guard in the draft sitting there for them. Garret needs to get his play calling together if SQB is healthy he can do some damage the way this OL was run blocking by mid year they ran over the Bucs to start it off and kept going.
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Post by imgrate on Jun 23, 2021 15:21:47 GMT -5
Brown wasn’t a long term solution and you’re acting like DG did a good job because he picked the best player on the team with the 2nd OVERALL pick. That should be a given, he doesn’t get praise for that. Please tell me when a RB has been more important than the O line? There’s been one RB in the past 20 years who has won the rushing title and SB in the same year. Dallas took Elliot with the 4th overall pick and they had one one of the best O lines in football for most of his career, where has that got them? They don’t even have one divisional playoff win. RB’s are an absolute waste of a first round pick and to think DG used the second overall pick on a RB is nauseating. No, I'm saying drafting the best player on the team was not a mistake. Saquon has never been the best or most valuable player on our team. He is, however, compensated to the level of a top 5 rb in the league. Guys on rookie deals are supposed to be a bargain, not already getting paid tops at their position. And even if he was it goes to show you how terrible DG has done and how taking a RB 2 overall reduces your resources in getting great players.
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 15:24:20 GMT -5
I think solder at the cut rate is worth it get happy were not stuck with his massive contract lol. I think the disservice DG had was to Jones not getting him some pass catchers I get EE is a physical freak but he has dropsy and isn't a great route runner, Slayton is a really good 5th round draft choice but he isn't a number 1 and Tate could help team as a 3rd WR not a 1 or 2 Shep is the only one who can get open on the regular he's a tough cover in the slot but that is where he failed Jones, get these guys open faster so he isn't sitting there with his thumb you know where. For sure, I think it’s both the lack of receivers and the O line that have been a disservice to Jones. Again, Gettleman built the team in the complete opposite way of how it should be done. Everyone knows that the best way to succeed is by drafting a rookie QB who can step in and be an immediate difference maker while they’re still on their rookie deal. In order for that to happen, they have to have the other pieces in place to succeed first (ie the O line and WR’s). Here we are 3 years later and we’re all still wondering whether Jones is our future or if he’s a bust only because DG has set him up for failure so far. At least we know he’ll have the receivers this year but the O line is still a mystery. Neither of those should have even been an issue. Jones wasn’t a “can’t pass” QB. I would have rather built the rest of the team first and hired a journeyman QB to fill the spot until we had a proper roster for our rookie QB to succeed with but instead it’s been the exact opposite. It would have been a lot easier on the the young OL and young QB if they had a legit stable of pass catchers I agree it's both but the line was playing better weekly in the second half
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Post by McCherry on Jun 23, 2021 15:25:10 GMT -5
No, I'm saying drafting the best player on the team was not a mistake. Saquon has never been the best or most valuable player on our team. He is, however, compensated to the level of a top 5 rb in the league. Guys on rookie deals are supposed to be a bargain, not already getting paid tops at their position. And even if he was it goes to show you how terrible DG has done and how taking a RB 2 overall reduces your resources in getting great players.He was absolutely the best player in 2018. At very least the second-best player in 2019. You mean like Bradberry, Martinez, Williams, Golloday, Jackson, Rudolph?
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Post by BigBlueDog42 on Jun 23, 2021 15:26:24 GMT -5
No, I'm saying drafting the best player on the team was not a mistake. Saquon has never been the best or most valuable player on our team. He is, however, compensated to the level of a top 5 rb in the league. Guys on rookie deals are supposed to be a bargain, not already getting paid tops at their position. And even if he was it goes to show you how terrible DG has done and how taking a RB 2 overall reduces your resources in getting great players. Who was better his first year he out performed OBJ by large margin especially he was IMHO year 2 can't think of someone better either
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